About 20 man raids

[Zabard]

First off, this is not meant to send criticism towards anybody in particular, and not any complaint about the way the 20 man raids are being run. I write this cause I think we would all benefit from this in the long run.
 
It is not a complaint from any of the people mentioned here, I bring this up on my own, and not as a request from others.
 
I finally managed to "lure" my friend Althax to join one of our raids to ZG the other night, and this was his first time raiding with us. The raid was fast as always, and us "veterans" did as we normally do. However, thinking a bit about my friend, and also Xblast who also was in there for the first time, I couldn't help but think: We gotta be a bitch to raid with for the newcomers.
 
Fair enough, they didn't always do as they are supposed to, which would surprise me being the first time they are there. But please, don't shout at them, that makes it only worse. On top of this, and don't get angry with me here Daedalus, but our dear raid leader doesn't speak the Queens English as well as some others, and he's a bit hard to understand at times. Adding this on top of the frustration of having to keep up with our break-neck speed can make it a study of confusion for most anybody.
 
I have only had the chance to talk to Althax briefly after our raid, but from what I hear him saying, he probably wont be joining us in any 20 man raids any time soon. Running round in a place you haven't been to before and in addition people shouting at you for being slow/not doing your job isn't what most people define as fun, which is what this is suppsed to be.
 
I know he didn't tell you that he was new (only in a tell to Daedalus), but when you hear that both he and Xblast is friendly with the Zandalar tribe should tell you that this is their first time there.
 
To sum it up: Be nicer, specially to our new members. Please, for eveyone's sake/enjoyment.

[Thierry]

I was there that run, and Xblast, Althax and me were the only mages. I tried to informed him on what to do, and i knew it was his first time. I whispered the RL and told him that Althax was here for the first time. No response. Then i told it in RC, no response again. So it isn't my fault really.
 
But i totally understand your point, and i hope that the RL's will take care of it next time.

[Keltor]

I was lying on my bed and watched Xblast do ZG the whole way through. I admit his performance was not veteran level for the last third of ZG but before that, he played good for a beginner. Our ISP has been going hay-wire for the past weeks and we get a DC roughly every 30mins for a minute which is a problem because he could of missed out some important information.

He wants to play to the RLs expectations and he worries about the consequences of making mistakes (results in his quiet personality and bad communication).

Believe me when I say this but he is very young (doesnt even meet age requirements for this game), his english vocabulary is not top-notched nor his ability to listen to foreign english accents and yes it was his first time here as a mage (had a 60 warrior but re-rolled mage in order to have an easier time).

He is working on improving on all the points where he is weak at but when people screw at him as if they expect him to be "pro", I get ****ed off. His feelings were hurt bad and it might have an impact on the way he looks at this game from now on but no worries, if he stops bringing his mage to 20-man dungeons, I'll play for him.

Kel

[TeaLeaf]

And I think that Zabard's post supported him Keltor.  It's worth us all taking time to understand the different experience of all players and make allowances.  More important than this is to give help - we only got to where we our now by helping each other and learning over a period of time.  And above all this, remember:

In 20 person raids the Silver Oak Guardians are probably the #1 rank Guild on this server.
If you don't believe this just try to find another Guild who clears both with as much ease.

So let's cut some less experienced members some slack and help them reach #1 *with* us.

TL.

[Keltor]

Yeah i forgot to mention that in my post, Thanks Jemeny :smile:

[Knabbel]

Zabard,
 
no hard feelings... I do need to take time to speak loudly and clearly it's one of my bads. On the other hand I would like to ask people to helpout the new ones. Last night I got a new palla in the MC run, and told him what and what not to do, same applies to the ZG and AQ runs. As I don't know all the abilities of all classes I must rely on the class channel. We paladins talk pretty much on that channel I don't know how this is in other channels. And most of all, people mustn't be affraid to ask questions in general. If it is a class specific question plz use the class channels, it's why it is there for.
 
If I had upset some people, please forgive me. And funny to read but I'm quiet happy with a post like this, now I can work on my bad habbits :biggrin:
 
Tell you friend to let him signup again, but also state him to ask questions when it's needed. It's stupid to do things wrong and not bother asking.
 
D.

[Zabard]

Like I said, Daedalus, it's not a post directed at you. I think you're doing a great job. It's just a bit hard to understand what you're saying at times, which is of no importance to us that's been in there a few times, but to newcomers, important info may get lost in it. Keep up your great work Daed.

[Tinilgawiel]

This only confirms my point of view of the SoG attitude getting worse.. If you are so bloody hardcore. Create a SoGHardcore guild then.. So you can raid 24/7 until your eyes pop out of your skulls.

[Bastet]

i dont think sog raid attitude is getting worse, its just that since theres 2-3 dozen players that done ZG and AQ over 30-40-50 times they dont need instructions anymore, and can pritty much run the entire instance without leader. Its quite daunting to join that as a first timer, but i urge them to join the class channel as Daedalus says, and ask any and all questions there, also whispering any player in the raid will generaly give you non class specific help.

[Umbra]

New people in a raid of experienced people are there to learn, so as people say, explain things nicely and clearly, and don't get stroppy if it's not perfect, since spending 3 years teaching people at uni  the only thing that ****es me off is people who won't learn, and don't want to, anyone who actively tries is worth the effort from people who know better.

To get an idea of what it can be like, in a raid of people who know what theyre doing, and don't communicate as much *because* they know what they're doing, try being in a raid where you're not in TS at all. Then you may get an idea of jsut how much info isn't passed around because people know. Or that your request was ignored because they aren't reading raid chat. I'm not saying it's what happens (before anyone assumes that is what i'm saying) but it's a way to get an insight into how it can feel.

you should only shout at people if they repeatedly do the same wrong thing when they are told not to, or if they blame anyone/everyone else for mistakes they've made after instructions are given clearly.

It sounds like XBlast is a quiet kid who really worries what people think and even the smallest slight from people can be really bad for morale, so, since it sounds like he is really trying, asking for instructions and learning how to be the best, I think he sounds like someone we want to keep (remember it's the kind of people who DON'T care what people think who up and leave SoG in a very rude manner). If sensitive people are treated badly, we'll only end up with transient a$$holes.

[lunares]

Just something to think about.
I agree on new ppl need a bit more attention normally we ask if ppl know the boss fight. If we dont get any response we will go.
HOWEVER sometimes i did tact and get whispers like come one everyone knows what to do. telling them we have new ppl doesnt help that. Like i said i agree on the matter here BUT there are 2 sides here not only 1.
This has nothing to do with the shouting just about the pace.
 
Lunares

[StrontiumDog]

Just a thought but when you have a mixture of experenced and inexperenced players in a raid, maybe the leader should nominate an experenced player to 'coach' other memebrs of his or her class on how each boss fight is done. This, as was mentioned in this thread, can be done in the class channels. Bottom line is you cannot give people grief if they do not know exactly what to do...so tell them  (nicely!)

[Deadlyspirit]

I agree that we have to be nice. not only to new ppl, but allso to all the old guys.

But in my case, I thought xblast where keltor and althrax was a alt. so did not really think about it. So I can only say sorry for the shouting. As it was mostly me, so send them to me and blame me.

But as luna says. If ppl dont say anything when they get asked if they know the fight it is really hard to help them.

[lunares]

Just a thought but when you have a mixture of experenced and inexperenced players in a raid, maybe the leader should nominate an experenced player to 'coach' other memebrs of his or her class on how each boss fight is done. This, as was mentioned in this thread, can be done in the class channels. Bottom line is you cannot give people grief if they do not know exactly what to do...so tell them (nicely!)

When i aprove ppl i allways try to have 2 of each class who are experienced and 1 member who is fairly new if signups allow. Not only for coaching but also different reasons (the raid today was an example of it, like yrthal als new member and dajo and optical as veterans).
 
Lunares

[Vargen]

I must admit that I myself actually tend to get annoyed or bored if I have to listen to the tactics for the 50th time. Most of the ppl in the guild know the tactics and know what to do so the few words that are said is usually just some of us joking around.
This isn't verry newbie friendly ofcourse, but all you have to do is ask. That is exactly why we have class channels.
 
When I raid now, the only place I would want tactics are where we are fairly new. Other then that only who gets what task should be announced.
Getting more and more new ppl in to the 20 man raids ofcourse, we should at least give them some time to ask questions if not give them tactics.
 
I guess I just prefer smooth and high paced raids with chatting and joking around on TS.