Interesting Rules... (or dumbass)

[Sheperdbook]

Some maybe aware that I was a little less than impressed with the loot handout of the Lawbringer Chestguard to Werful this Thursday evening.

First of all, congratulations Werful, hope you enjoy it, I have no issues against you in this.

The full-set rule was implemented this evening denying myself of a Lawbringer Chestguard and giving it to Werful, I had 6/8 items and he had 7/8.

What I have an issue with is what I fundementally see as poor reasoning in the rule structure. Surely, the guild should reward it's members with lots of lovely phat lewt for their services, even more to those who have shown commitment and have raided over long lengths of time. For this reason the wonderful dkp system was founded, which rewarded loyalty and active service to the raid group. So point one, the simple start, I had by far the more dkp, more than twice the unused dkp than our lovely Werful.

Second point, I decided that: hey, let's think about this logically, the rule is supposed to help the raid group in getting full sets, so there would be more bonuses offered to the group. But this rule tragically trips up on itself in that it is actually denying and slowing down progress to acquire the greater number of set bonuses: it impedes players from getting lower order set bonuses and lengthens the process for players like myself from getting full sets.

Third point, well I thought a more logical approach would be to see how many times the boss has been downed before by the contesting players, I myself had done the boss who dropped the loot 20% more than the opposing bidder. Again this seems quite unfair.

Fourth point, oh yes any oldie officer will officially slate me for using this one (though I still love using it hehe): I have spent overall twice the amount of time in Molten Core than my opponent. I'd also like someone to check the amount of times Magmadar has dropped the wretched Lawbringer Leggings in comparison to my presence there, you'll find not very often: I have been deeply unlucky actually on that drop. I have shown over my career much greater service to SOG raids. I have not even brought up the issue that actually I'm owed nearly 150g for Repairbots in the early days because I'm not concerned about it (oh and pls note: I will refuse any payment for them), I have raided with the guild in the belief that I can be of greater service to the guild, but times like this are just a slap in the face.

Now before someone says "hey you keep running off for several months" (had a lovely chat to Defiler yesterday who immediately said that to me hehe), this in this case is unusable, I have spent twice as long in MC. For clarification, over the last year I have been training for shooting (I shoot in national British competitions for my university) on raid nights, I did inform several officers at the time and I did consider my options, I decided to wait it out and see what happened. As it has turned out this coming year my training has been moved to Saturdays, so I won't have this conflict. I have also informed officers of this as well as the Guild Master.

So can we have a fundamental review of this utterly dumb rule, it only serves really to **** ppl off. If you want a fair way go back to using dkp only or start comparing boss kills. If you must use the rule use it with extreme caution, it would be a good idea to count up the difference in dkp of outstanding items of the person being set aside by the rule, for instance:

I was only lacking the Lawbringer Legplates which cost 85dkp.
At the time of the loot drop I had 801 dkp and Werful had 316.
Now we can see that in this case I could have easily afforded the leggings as well as the chest plate and still have more dkp than Werful.
This method would protect those trying to build their complete set of items.

I'm now still stuck with a silly rare chest piece that does not at all benefit myself or the raid group. It has also alienated myself (thank goodness unlike some I'm not considering leaving guild any time soon).

Also it has left me unprotected in building my own set as other players can still outbid me and win the items that I need as I only have 6 items, which again shows how deeply absurd this rule is.

Anyways hope we can wake up, and sort this one out as it really is obvious that this rule is not helping guild members actually build sets. Oh I reserve the right to rant the next time this rule is used against me on Lawbringer items :narnar:. I'm trying my best not to get wound up about this, and as it so happens Father Ragnaros decided to step in and help out with the wow-equivalent of morphine: more epic items!:biggrin:.

Take care all!


Shep

[StrontiumDog]

Since when did we stop using DKP for loot? or have I missed something...

[Sheperdbook]

Sorry, this post is regarding the "completing the set rule".

This rule states that somebody on 7 items has priority no matter what over anyone else on an item. Which is the cause of my complaint.

[Vargen]

This rule is at least non existing in RG1, but it has happend that members of a class have discussed passing amongst themselves if someone is really hung up on the last part of a set. Imo, DKP is DKP, but this is in full up to the marshals that lead RG2.
 
I know you have been unlucky with drops Shep, and you aren't alone on that. So good luck on the next one mate.

[Sheperdbook]

Thanks Varg, but who would be the best person with regards to RG2 to discuss this. I just don't feel that anyone else should have to put up with a similar injustice.

There was certainly no discussion about Werful's bid as he really doesn't know much English, I had said that I wanted the item in our class channel several times and I actually had a couple of peeps cheer for me when it did drop, it just all added upto such a really very nasty stinging anti-climax for myself.


Shep

[Adularena]

Shep. I completely understand where you are coming from, and I think you statement is a valid one.
Noone will take my posts serious, atleast in raiding section, but remember I used to raid my fair share. I was in a quite similar position as you Shep. The difference was that there was no written rule about it. But I felt forced to pass the item up. I know, then the guy would have full or close to full set, but what about me, I would then have just as many set items as him if I got the item. (sorry for my ramblings).
My point is that it should be up to the guy with the top DKP to decide. It _IS_ his item. If things turn out in a "unrealistic" way, the guy with the top DKP might be the last one to complete his full set if he is unlucky with the dropps.
 
At this point I can only comfort Shep. and wish you good luck next time, as rules are rules. But DKP should be king.

[Sheperdbook]

Thanks Adu, I do value your support, especially as one of the 'old skool' raiders from the early days :biggrin:.

I just really hope that it's not going to take another 2 months for me to see one!

I could just blame the gf for keeping me away the raiding night those sodding legplates dropped (which is when Werful got them - last week, not as if he's been waiting ages). Again no disrespect to Werful just pointing out the flaws in the system.


Shep

PS I don't blame my gf, that'd just be cruel.

[Padding]

The full-set rule was implemented this evening denying myself of a Lawbringer Chestguard and giving it to Werful, I had 6/8 items and he had 7/8.

I agree that the "Bonus set" rule is outdated and not needed anymore these days. It was implemented for different reasons, and some of them are not valid anymore. In RG1 we use the "dkp-is-dkp-use-your-head" rule and that seems to generally work well. Sometimes it goes wrong, but hey, no systems are perfect
 

Second point, I decided that: hey, let's think about this logically, the rule is supposed to help the raid group in getting full sets, so there would be more bonuses offered to the group. But this rule tragically trips up on itself in that it is actually denying and slowing down progress to acquire the greater number of set bonuses: it impedes players from getting lower order set bonuses and lengthens the process for players like myself from getting full sets

I think you are seeing ghosts here. There can never be a drop that will not be picked up by someone, if some persons in the raid doesnt have it, they need to take it, so the item will be put to use
 

Third point, well I thought a more logical approach would be to see how many times the boss has been downed before by the contesting players, I myself had done the boss who dropped the loot 20% more than the opposing bidder. Again this seems quite unfair.

Maybe logical, but WAY to much administration. Again i find that the "DKP-is-DKP" works fine. You spent the time, you get the dime. We cant look in the old books and see who spent time earlier in an instance, just doesnt work that way
 

Fourth point, oh yes any oldie officer will officially slate me for using this one (though I still love using it hehe): I have spent overall twice the amount of time in Molten Core than my opponent. I'd also like someone to check the amount of times Magmadar has dropped the wretched Lawbringer Leggings in comparison to my presence there, you'll find not very often: I have been deeply unlucky actually on that drop. I have shown over my career much greater service to SOG raids. I have not even brought up the issue that actually I'm owed nearly 150g for Repairbots in the early days because I'm not concerned about it (oh and pls note: I will refuse any payment for them), I have raided with the guild in the belief that I can be of greater service to the guild, but times like this are just a slap in the face.

Shep, i STILL dont have Magmadar Paladin Leggings, and probably will never get it. Dropped twice in 2 weeks where i was on vacation, and even though its really annoying, it didnt stop me from pushing on and getting the other things i could get. We cant/wont register who did what at what time in what instance over different time periods since its WAY to much administration.
 
To sum up, i think the Marshals should look at the set-bonus rule and consider to remove it. Its up to them to consider whether they think it serves the best in the raid to keep it, or remove it.
 
On a general note i'd like to add that i think its fair that people comments on the rules and we all have healthy discussions, but we should never forget that this is just a game and eventually the item we dont get 1 week, will drop one of the next weeks. We've all been there, and we are gonna be there again and again as we learn new instances
 
DISCLAIMER
As always, remember that my views are my own, and not necessarily the views of all officers

[TeaLeaf]

Pretty much agree with everything Padding says, apart from the Disclaimer.  I don't do 'disclaimers'.

DKP is DKP.  
RG1 do not use a set bonus.
RG2 Marshalls need to discuss and announce their loot view.

TL.

[Siffredi]

Well i do really understand ur issues with this rule, and the rule is actually for RG2 members benefit, however it might be outdatet at this point. We (marshals) will have a discussion about this. Since this is the first time anyone have complained about this (most getting thier sets or are very close to it), i thought this system was a good system, but it does in some ways not benefit the solo player that have saved dkp up or just plain unlucky player (you might consider urself at the last option), because another player might get it cause of 8/8 set priority.
If you have any other questions about this matter or other dont hesitate to contact me or any other marshal

[Umbra]

*hugs shep* set bonuses shouldn't be an issue, if bidders discuss the relative merits of kit they should be able to agree themselves, dkp-use-yer-head thingy.

[Gallahan]

./agree that set rules are in some situation bad, but mostly cause most set bonuses arent that good, f.x. the LB 8/8 set bonus should not merit a priority as its a chance on hit to heal, how many pallies are hitting mobs wearing 8/8 LB? I know i aint, when i go damage instead of healing i do 5/8 LB, and some damage gear for the rest...
 
know that other classes also have some useless bonuses.
 
But on the other hand, the 5/8 LB bonus is quite nice and the 3/8 judgement also, so i would be able to understand why a priority could come up on those items...
 
But then again dkp=king is prolly the best

[Sheperdbook]

Just to clarify:

"Second point, I decided that: hey, let's think about this logically, the rule is supposed to help the raid group in getting full sets, so there would be more bonuses offered to the group. But this rule tragically trips up on itself in that it is actually denying and slowing down progress to acquire the greater number of set bonuses: it impedes players from getting lower order set bonuses and lengthens the process for players like myself from getting full sets" (Sheperdbook, 2006)


I think you are seeing ghosts here. There can never be a drop that will not be picked up by someone, if some persons in the raid doesnt have it, they need to take it, so the item will be put to use" (Padding, 2006) (sry my quote thing doesn't seem to work).    
 

I think you may have misunderstood me here, I'm not talking about whether people actually want to pick up items but rather the set bonuses offered by those items.

I meant that set item drops can benefit players who have 1/8 or 4/8 items in the same way that it can benefit players with 7/8 items. As afterall for Lawbringer certainly the 5/8 item bonus is certainly as attractive, if not more attractive than the 8/8 bonus.

So a player with 4/8 items would have been discriminated against in favour of a person with 7/8. Though the advantage to the raid group would be negligible.

Thus the rule trips over itself in that it is aiming to supply bonuses to the raid group members, but as I have shown it fails to make actually any real difference.

I'm just illustrating this is more of a very apt method of slapping players in the face rather than achieving anything else. I could go personal and say that I have always taken an item if it could benefit my raid performance (Salamander Leggings and Magma Tempered Boots for example - I've prob got the names slightly wrong), so there is no issue about me having stored dkp and turning down items in the set.

I am a little bitter about it, not so much about having lost out on the drop but having lost out on the item in the way that I did. Especially when I thought I had finally got the item that I actually *needed* (I'm still stuck on a rare chest). Raggy's drops (judgement leggings and malister's defender) though nice, weren't replacing blue items.

Also where it appears I've been stating alternative answers, I've been using them more to illustrate the redundancy of the full-set rule by highlighting the disadvantages in the full-set rule.

Finally my honest view to the actual sensible answer is dkp but with use of the thing attached to your torso by the neck. If there had been discussion and that we had decided that it would for x reason benefit Werful more than myself I wouldn't have a problem, but in regard to what happened I do have a problem, as really I do feel a little cheated by the system.


Shep

[Padding]

Well.... im sure that the Marshals have watched this thread and will act if they see fit to change the rules

[Sheperdbook]

Oh I forgot to add, though I realise nothing officially has been said: I'm glad to see that most agree that the system is practically outdated. What I am seeking is it's removal from future raids, I don't want anyone else feeling the way I felt last night! - Hey this game is supposed to be fun!


Shep