Promote from within........

[Zabard]

I think u're kind of missing the point, Sinap. What Sandrion means is that it's better to move a player from RG2 to RG1 if that is what the player want (and there is a need for the class), than to say that this is not gonna ever happen. The reason for this is that the player might leave SoG instead, which wouldn't help RG2 any more than the player being moved to RG1.

[Luminance]

2) If a RG2 player moves to RG1, he might have less DKP, but he would probably get items that are very good according his standard, since most RG1 ppl now start aiming for gear higher than BWL thus passing on tier 2 and def. tier 1?

Well look at me, i had almost most dkp of the rg2 rogues (so no ex rg1 members) i would be able to even choose the BF pieces when they drop. Now i'm the lowest dkp rogue, I only get the leftovers if they drop, at the moment i can only get braicers and gloves. If i would have stayed in rg2, i'm sure i would have gotten the bloodfang faster since i had most dkp. But i couldn't stay due to work, so i'm glad i could go and still have a shot at bloodfang .

And for the better gear, at Naxx or AQ i'm lowest too, ok its only 100-400 dkp diffirence with aq and maybe 5-20 with naxx, but it still means i only get the 6th rogue piece that drops.

[TeaLeaf]

What Sandrion means is that it's better to move a player from RG2 to RG1 if that is what the player want (and there is a need for the class), than to say that this is not gonna ever happen.

We haven't said that it will never happen, but we have said we will avoid it where possible and only work in conjunction with RG2 Marshals to ensure best outcome from both raid groups.  Whether or not someone leaves the Guild is one thing, but having a steady flow from RG2 to RG1 would decimate RG2 and then you'd see bugger all progress.

TL.

[Sheperdbook]

This clarification in the role of Raid Group 2 is exactly what it requires for it's long term success. So my congratulations to TL and the Marshal crowd for making it known!

In the longer term having two highly succesful raid groups will create more fun for more and more loot for everyone! (it's simple arithmetic at the end of the day)

And also it's the perfect option for those who want to experience the learning curve and push their way to every first boss kill for the raid group!

I'm sure that many of us want to raid extra days and a poll is ready in place for choosing the day!

Yes, there might be some short-term disadvantages for individuals but really we should all be looking at the long term picture, especially now that the expansion is within several months of release.

3 cheers for SOG!


Shep

[Bastet]

Yes the release of the expansion and the reduction in the ammount of raid seats will be a big change, and with the current ammount of raiding members there will probably be several more groups in various levels of hardcoreishness :unsure:
 
But that all will have to be talked about by (Field) Marshals when the time gets closer :smile:

[Sandrion]

We haven't said that it will never happen, but we have said we will avoid it where possible and only work in conjunction with RG2 Marshals to ensure best outcome from both raid groups. Whether or not someone leaves the Guild is one thing, but having a steady flow from RG2 to RG1 would decimate RG2 and then you'd see bugger all progress.
 
TL.

Ok, thank you for clarifying that.
 
I understand the reluctance to transfer people between raid groups. Although I assume that the people that have the wish to be transferred and are experienced enough to join RG1, are also most likely the ones that are going to be 'missed' the most by RG2. So it kind of sound like a complicated way of saying: no, it's not gonna happen :tongue: .
 
Like I stated before I do not expect that RG2 gets another raid day. Which will cause our progression to stagnate, simple because of time contraints.
 
So I still see the risk of losing good people :unsure: .
 
 
But I agree with Bastet. In two to three months time the expansion will arrive, which will have inevitable consequences for the raid groups. They will, most likely, cease to exist. But even then, this 'issue' may still arrise in the future. I hope you will take that into consideration while thinking of a new 'raid system' for the expansion. You have a though job ahead of you :flirty: .

[Umbra]

my 2C worth:
as most peolpe have said, freely allowing people to move from '2 to '1 when there are spaces is counterproductive, since usually it is because player A wants more progress/more loot/more raiding, they want to go to RG1, this sets back the progress et. al. of '2, meaning the players who are sitll in '2 want more loot, more progress, so then THEY want to move etc. it is far wiser to put the effort and investment into '2 to advance it than take what some people see as a shortcut (it's not really) and join '1.

Unless there are really good reasons, like you can't raid mondays ever again, even the need for more raid days isn't really an issue, if you really feel strongly about something tell a guild leading dude and see where it goes. Don't just leave. Remeber, they may put time/blood/sweat/tears into running the guild, but it's still our guild .

[Bob]

But that all will have to be talked about by (Field) Marshals when the time gets closer :smile:

Just on a small side note:  I think that's something that should be  discussed among all the members, not only in the closed forums of the Officers.  This will be such a big change afflicting all the members of the guild, so this is something I think we all should have a say in.

And also, I think it's smart if we start to discuss it, throw out suggestions and such in an early phase, since that will make us better prepared for when the expantion comes :smile:

[Zabard]

The problem with RG2 is quite obvious as it is right now. We spend one day clearing MC, and one day taking down Razorgore. This means that we have to get down Razorgore on the first or second go to even get to try more than a couple of times on boss 2 before the raid is called.  The lack of the third day to try to get further in to BWL and thus improving the general equipment level of RG2 wont happen.
 
There is a poll now about another raid day for RG2, but judging from the poll, we'll get the same result as RG1. Too many either can't/wont raid anohter day, or the day people can raid are spread too thinly. No dedication, skill or time can ever counter this for those who wish to raid a third day. I hope this can explain the frustration of some of RG2's members.

[Bastet]

Well i know the marshals are working on something in case there wont be a 3th raid day, give them some time :smile:

[Sandrion]

Just on a small side note: I think that's something that should be discussed among all the members, not only in the closed forums of the Officers. This will be such a big change afflicting all the members of the guild, so this is something I think we all should have a say in.
 
And also, I think it's smart if we start to discuss it, throw out suggestions and such in an early phase, since that will make us better prepared for when the expantion comes :smile:

I agree, maybe we could open a seperate thread to discuss this. The expansion will be here before you know it :happy: .

[TeaLeaf]

The problem with RG2 is quite obvious as it is right now. We spend one day clearing MC, and one day taking down Razorgore.

Patience young padawn.  You assume MC is raided every week.  If this does not hold true then your assertion fails too.  However, ignoring whether or not MC is raided every week, take a look at this bit:

This means that we have to get down Razorgore on the first or second go to even get to try more than a couple of times on boss 2 before the raid is called.

I know you probably didn't mean exactly that but:

Do you only think your raid lasts for 90 minutes? Are you serious in saying that 4 pulls is a night's raiding?  Jayzus, I've done nights with RG1 where we had to do Razegore twice and then Vael FOUR times and *then* we went on and cleared the the rest of BWL including Nefarian!  Four times is *nothing*!

To a certain extent, I really believe that RG2 are still learning the principles needed to succeed in BWL and later instances. You have the raw talent (and DPS), but have not yet learned to focus and control it as required by each instance and boss.  In a very rough approximation the instances go something like this:

• MC = just hit things, hard - someone will heal you more than you get hit, most of the time.  High fault tolerance - ie you can cock it up badly and still kill the boss.
• BWL =  hit things in the right order, with moderate threat control and semi-accurate timing, with some specific class roles, modest resistance and work mainly in large groups.  Moderate fault tolerance - you can cock one or two things up and get away with it, just.  Basic ability to adjust on the fly needed.
• AQ40 = hit things in the right order, with highly controlled threat, specific timing, working in up to 2 units with a good degree of specific class roles and interraction, with degrees of resistance and focused DPS.  Low fault tolerance: get a couple of things wrong and you wipe - everyone needs to know what they're doing 99% of the time. Moderate to high adjustment on the fly needed.  Some autonamous group work needed later in instance.
• Naxx = hit things in the right order, by the right class, at the right time, with highly controlled and swappable threat, with high level focused DPS, working in 4-6 units with a high degree of specific class roles and interraction all working to a single plan on a single time line.  Minimal Fault Tolerance - get someone in your raid who does not know what they're doing or is unable to focus on their specific role throughout the fight and you'll wipe. Fluid and precise adjustments needed independent of Raid Leader - high degree of autonamous and accurate group work required.

RG2 need to come to understand that wiping that is a necessity when learning new instances.  
You suffer together, that builds the bonds needed to overcome the challenge.  
You learnt to work better as a team, not as a group of DPS hungry individuals.  
You need to learn to pay attention, to your Marshalls and their instructions.
You need to learn to focus on your specific role, period.
You need to learn execution of a strategy as a team.

Now don't get me wrong here, I think RG2 are doing great, but what I am trying to point out is that whether you do this over 1,2, 3 or 4 raiding days each week you still need to overcome these basic problems.  Work as a team and you will indeed progress.  That's what it's about.  You won't stagnate, you'll learn the skills necessary to help you survive and defeat the bosses further into BWL and beyond.

TL.

[Luthor]

Its just sad to see people leave because you could not get from RG2 to RG1... even there was an open seat and then leave the guild because they wanted to raid more... *cough* Pilgaard *cough*

[Knabbel]

In addition to TL's story,
 
I followed the progression of RG1 through Soulbringerx and what I remember is that RG1 did a lot of wiping on Razorgore, Vael and Broodlord. Those we the hard bosses. After that they killed them I heard they downed Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamgore and Chrommy all within 16 days.
 
Broodlord 1ste kill 12-03-06
Firemaw 1ste kill 04-04-06
Ebonroc 1ste kill 11-04-06
Flamgore 1ste kill 11-04-06
Chromaguss 1ste kill 18-04-06
 
I realy expected them to take at least 1.5 months on chrommy, but they downed him very fast.
 
As you can see the progression went on much faster. ofc it took a while downing Nefarian but that was due to attendance problems.
 
Lesson for RG2, stick together and help eachother out as a team, we will be put to the test even further more.
 
Okay a side note is that they have 3 raiding days but then it still went fast, something we can achief to!
 
D.

[TeaLeaf]

Luthor, you may have perceived a slot in RG1 or even just assumed it, but you were and are not in possession of the full facts, so stating it as gospel isn't particularly helpful.

T*coughs*L.