Other Guild Runs

[DarkAngel]

Ok can we use this space to discuss what happened tonight.
 
As i know it, Wierd asked many days ago if i could help with another guild doing ZG. Which i replied if im free ill do it no problem, now personally i do not see the issue with people doing other guild runs if it does not effect RG1/RG2 raid days.
 
As other than raid days its really your time and it is always nice to help out people.
 
Now i can see how others are annoyed at this and i think other than bitching at each other and abbuse we should take this into account and set some rules?
 
As i was disgusted with some peoples talk in Officer's Channel. I do not like people using that language and we the Marshalls need to set a example. So please write constructive comments below, so we can use this to make the guild stronger not weaker.
 
OA

[Bastet]

Not a problem, but our own raid was less then full (not good), members in the other raid where agressively hounding down ppl that wherent busy (bad), not any of you found it fit to inform the commanders (very bad).
 
Add up, it feels like a back stab to the commanders cause all the work they do, and all the time that goes into leading, that then our own guilds raid is struggeling like crazy cause some SOG ppl went w/ another raid.
 
This problem was arround before and it was said then that sog members could join other raids provided they didnt agressively approach other sog to help, leaving them for the guild raid.
 
So far the constructive bit, and now for my personal opions:
 
I hope your all happy w/ the other guilds run, cause that stupid stunt cost us at least 2 commanders who feel betrayed in such a way *again* that they dont even want to bother leading a 20 man raid again.
 
Well done, i hope we are able to run 20 mans @ all now......

[Siffredi]

Well, for one we are not required to participate in the guild run, however the matter that remaining SoG members who didnt end up in SoG ZGrun were "huntet" down by us was not good and was not the meaning at all. Really what we wanted with Veritas was helping them out in ZG, and not to distrub neither commanders nor other guildies. However this was the case this evening, and it is ofc. a bit bad situation for both of us hence we both needed some help. Although noone should be obligated to only be able to participate in SoG runs, since all have friends outside the guild (yes there is a world outside SoG), and we should have the freedom to decide what we want to do when were playing wow. It seemed like those running the ZG sog run, kinda flamed at Wierd for him not joining ur raid, and i find that pretty disburbing. Cause if you look at it he is actually one of the most dedicated players in RG2 and in the guild, and the same with many of us others too - So really think that the way it was handled was not the best, but then lets have a discussion about how we want to do it in the future...

[Vargen]

I don't believe this has anything to do with Weird at all. It does however reflect rather badly when upwards of 10 ppl join another guilds raid to the same location that our own guild have scheduled a raid on the verry same night. It reflects even worse that some were RG2 leaders. I won't get into the whole teambuilding thing or anything like that, but keep in mind what the ones in YOUR guild thought when THEIR raid allmost got cancelled because of it. People feel left out and stepped on.
 
It is a slap in the face for the Commaders, or should I say Ex-Commanders, that put in the time and effort to keep the 20 man raids running. I remember putting in the hours myself when the first 20 man instance was released and having major problems with loot issues and tactics. It isn't an easy job, but they pulled it off and even with a verry good system for loot and invites.
 
I won't put myself above everything here and say that you can't do this and you can't do that. I don't like to see conflicts like this. However I DO expect Field Marshals and Marshals alike to keep in mind what consiqueses their actions might have. You have a high profile role in this guild, so it is only natural that what you do will get more notice.
 
I'll just let you think about that.

[TeaLeaf]

As Marshalls you have a greater responsibility.  Nope we do not ban or block participation in the raid, but ask your self if the impact of publically recruiting SOG members to go to someone else's ZG raid at the same time as we were recruiting people for our Guild raid was either sensible or just plain dumb.  If you had bothered to spend two seconds reviewing the sign up list you would have seen the problems we had with class balance and you had a duty to be there supporting the raid - the obligation comes with the territory.  Guild first.

As for flaming Wierd, I disagree.  Luna asked a polite and general question in gchat as to what was going on with so many SOG in ZG but not enough in SOG's own ZG run. Unfortunately nobody had the guts to answer even when he asked a second time.  None of us flamed Wierd publically so cut that bull from the story.  You got flamed by other members for your actions not by a FM, M or Commander.

I was subsequently whispered by Wierd.  Why me I have no idea as the person asking the questions was Luna.  Wierd apologised profusely for cocking up and said he would leave the raid he was in.  I confirmed that this was not necessary as we were then full (albeit with only 1 priest).  Frankly none of you would have been that welcome at that point.

When asked in ochat if there was a problem I said yes.  I had a problem with it.  I stated it.  You know why.

Am I disappointed, yes.
Angry, yes.  
Why?  Because it was blatently obvious what one of the most likely outcomes  of this type of action would be - the loss of Commanders.

I suggest that you and Wierd (possibly others too) consider applying for the job of Commander and take on the reponsibility for the 20s - see how you feel when someone does the same to you (and this is not the first time - a fact that you are aware of through your role as Marshall).  Take on the responsibility for the role; you then might understand my reaction better - and the Guild has some vacancies to fill in that area now.  The effort needed to run the 20s is immense and keeping the 20s raid schedule going and combining it with the RG1 schedule is incedibly demanding.  Are you up for it?

Damn I'm angry about what went on as we lost Commanders tonight, the best leaders of the best 20 person raid teams on the Aszune server.  Nobody clears ZG & AQ20 liek we do - we are the No 1 on the server - and it's all down to the efforts that your actions weakened.  No wonder they felt completely let down.

So what do you do now?  You think carefully about what you and did and what the people you coerced did tonight and the impact it has had on the Guild.  You mentioned yourself that maybe recruiting from gchat was not the smartest move in the world - well nss, I can confirm that.  Then I suggest you go cap in hand and apologise to the Commanders who have just resigned and ask for their forgiveness.  Then stop trying to defend the position and get on with the job of being a Marshall.  The job requires fore thought, which you usually give it, you just dropped a bollock tonight which is a damn shame as it hit the floor real hard and did some damage.

As for me being intimidating some times? I'm usually a happy chap, trying to help fill others with a sense of purpose, driving towards a goal.  Tonight I was just immensely disappointed and fearful of the Commanders' reaction, that was what drove the strength of my own comments and made me mad.  I usually shield my reactions most of the time for the good of the raid - RLs can't go off the wall every time we wipe, there needs to be some stability there, but situations like this do not call for the flannel treatment, just honesty.  And with my honesty comes my passion for SOG and SOG's members.  You and Wierd got some passion from me tonight, I'm sorry if it scared you.

TS?  Yep, happy to have the discussion, but I'll not pull punches, I'll not lie to you.  If I think it's **** I'll say so, if it's great I'll praise.  I have always worked on the basis that it is far better to be honest and tell it how it is than to cover them in BS and try ty 'act' for people.  "Homy don't do dat."  

I'll be on TS most of the day tomorrow I hope, I await your contact with interest.

TL.

[TeaLeaf]

Damn that just shows how long I thought about the above post - Vargen's wasn't there when I started typing!

TL.

[Bastet]

Small add: if last nites ZG was a AQ run, then there could have been a double screw up, since ppl might have still been saved in ZG when our own ZG run was.

[Siffredi]

Well TL i would gladly discuss this matter with you on TS... i have visiters comming today and are not sure when im availeble and have time for it today. I didnt know that commanders resigned because of this, and if so who resigned?

[TeaLeaf]

Lunares, Kregoron and Menedil resigned last night.  Not solely because of this issue, that would be unfair to say, but it is undeniable that it was another contributing factor - the straw that broke the camel's back perhaps.

I'm online most of the weekend if you wish to talk.

TL.

[Sazgul]

What a read - Which persons does this envolve? - As the post seems to be "shooting" at Marshalls in general.
 
I kinda felt a bit shoot at myself reading this post, and im not even aware of what exeactly went down....

[Siffredi]

Its mainly about me... And a little on wierd - but mainly me