Help - good or not? Lets debate

[Sazgul]

I just took myself 10 min to post between tasks at work, which kinda stacks up atm.
(I know this subject has been discussed at bit between FM's, so we might as well get this debate startet inhere asap.)
 
I think there's a small matter we need to discuss a bit, and consider, regarding the progress and future of Raidgroup2.
 
Is the current help we recieve from Raidgroup1 / FM's too much? - Will it result in Raidgroup2 not beeing able to cope with months of wipes at future boss'es? - Do RG2 progress "to easy" due to the ammount of help we get?
How much is too much?
 
What do you think?
 
- I would hate to see in the future that RG2 lost members due to the fact that RG2 cannot cope with wipelearning, because we are used to fast progress.
 
Personally I appriciate the help we get from FM's and here I would like to highlight TL. The work you put into helping Marshalls and RG2 is so great that I lack words to describe the impact / possitive effect it has. I for one now feel 90% more confident to co-lead RG2 through Suppresion rooms and towards Brood.
After this we hit Firemaw, and I was happy to see that we wiped on all tries on him, at that point RG2 needed to get some wipelearning. This preventet us from RG2 expecting this go all the way past Firemaw every time we go to BWL.
 
Back on topic. I dont know if the help is too much. I love having RG1 people with us in BWL/MC (alts/mains) - This among other helps our progress and understanding of instances, but it also servers as a "bridge builder" between the two raidgroups. When we have RG1 people with us, they are also on TS and RG2 bonds faster with RG1 people this way. This also prevents the guild beeing 'split' into two groups. I really like the bridgebuilding process of this. This imo has a possitive effect on the guild.
 
Imo getting help the first time you encounter something new, isent a bad thing. This will ensure you get on the right track. But then again one can debate if we need to find this "right track" ourself.
 
Us getting help is appriciatet, the help is there, and we accept it, if the help is not there, well we will try and manage on our own.
 
To much help? imo.
* Getting access to forum tactics - No
* Getting tactic recap on TS from FM's - No
* Getting a run through with explanation in empty instance - No
* Getting a FM to tag along on raid to help with the new first encounters - No
 
I think its great that the two raid groups help each other, that beeing in BWL or Quest runs in MC, either way I think it's a good thing. Life functions this way, you seek the knowledge, the know how, in anyway you feel is best.
 
Last words - If FM's decide to stop the current help ammount, we will still cope with it, and learn ourself, but as long as you are willing to help, we will appriciate that.
 

The main thing here is - Will this hurt RG2, more than help, in the longer run?
 
Hope you got the hang of it, tho my english aint that great. Otherwise ask.

[Padding]

The main thing here is - Will this hurt RG2, more than help, in the longer run?

In short, i think MC proved that its not a problem in itself. RG2 doesnt have problems with turn up, and people leaving the guild you cant stop anyways. Those people will leave anyways!
 
All guilds are looking at tactics on the internet, and using all help possible from friends etc so i really dont see the problem
 
I think you should get all help you can, and that RG1/FM are willing to put into it, as long as it doesnt hurt RG1[/B]

[DarkAngel]

Last night i really liked having TL along as he has a huge amount of experience down there and this really built up my confidence and im sure the other Marshalls in leading in other runs. I say if we can get them why not use them? Im sure everyone in the run would aggree and its not like we have the chance every run to steal a FM :smile: .

[Bastet]

In MC it didnt hurt much, but if progress is too fast, due to not learning how encounters work you end up going faster then gear is fit for. Now let me explain this:
 
RG1 spends a longer time learning bosses, arround twice as long as RG2 (maybe more). During that time we can get the gear from the bosses allready downed, making for a higher equiped raid group when you get to the parts where the gear is needed. FE, chrommy is a endurance fight on healers, and the 3 set bonus of stormrage and trancendance (15% mana regen while casting) helps a lot here. When RG1 got here, at least half the healers had 3 or more bits.
 
If RG2 keeps the current pace they might have 3 bits in the entire group.
 
Also, due to flying through MC due to defenders allready knowing MC RG2 does not have the chance to build the bond RG1 has, healers knows who heals what, where to focus and such.
 
Also RG2 has allready shown beeing unable to cope with a couple nites of whipes (ppl leaving, bitchy posts on forums) leading me to believe that RG2 does not benifit from our help in the long run.
 
Them be meh 5 silver.
 
PS: Talking to several RG2 members last nite they found the rush of a new bosskill beeing less then the bosses done w/o help.
PSS: I am not saying to stop w/ forum help, but TS, walkthought, FM's on run, helping implement tacts might be a bit too much help.

[Siffredi]

This is a very hard thing to discuss hence in the short run its great benefit - however i agree on bastets saying as it does not take much to take away the spirit from some RG2 members when we dont progress fast. So allthough we apreciate the great help from TL and others it might be best to help ourselves only though Videos and read tactics and then let us Marshals do them and make our own experiences.

[Greatdanes]

There is 2 side of this case, I think.
No 1 - if we do wipe learning and not make fast progress, we lose people who want that.
No 2 - if we get to mush help, we can't gear wise get future boss's down.
 
A no win situation in both cases.
 
But which one has the lowest expense and will overtime be the one we can get most benefit from.
 
Personally I enjoying, having TL in a raid and commanding people. Because when he talk/yell tactics, people and listen and do as told, they have respect for him in a way we don't have got the time to learn/earn yet. He does have the power in his word (great man) the gift of getting people to listen when he speak and understand what he means.
 
I like we from time to time get help from the officers so the gab between the 2 raidgroup not are getting to big.

[Bastet]

And by having TL arround a fair ammount of time how do you expect to earn/learn how to lead a raid own your own?

[Greatdanes]

See you point - Bastet

[TeaLeaf]

having TL arround a fair ammount of time

I'm not quite sure that my attendance to RG2 deserves that phrase - I would suggest that is is 'occasional' at worst, but more fairly described as 'rarely'.

I'm struggling to feel nowt other than confused, I helped out and seem to be attracting criticism for that :unsure:

The speed issue not an issue as you can easily look at Righteous RG2 or Righteous RG3 and their respective progress, so anyone saying speed of progress is an issue is missing something.  Gear will always play a part, but either way you'll be wiping at bosses.  RG2 have an opportunity to pick up loot regularly now from the first 3 bosses, this will progress their gear faster than by not helping them, so I see the 'you're going too fast' argument as a spurious one.  

If truth be told I did bugger all last night.  I simply talked the Marshalls through the tactics so that they could continue the progress themselves and feel sufficiently confident about the fight to do the job properly (which I know they will do).  I'm not sure that should be criticised - and the last thing I want to see is a wall being erected between RG1 & RG2, any bigger than the one there already is.

The Marshalls manage their own raids well.  I am sure they will decline help where they feel it is not needed.

TL.