Raid/Loot Rules?

[JanuZ]

simple I haven't had the CTRA core since TBC came out and i would rather say everyone should have oRA then everyone should have CTRA.

Btw oRA is made from CTRA and has the CTRA core in its code. That is why everyone that has oRA give a CTRA version as well on a version check

Also i would say that BigWigs should not be needed if people have Deadlyboss mod.

[TeaLeaf]

Personally we like BigWigs better than DBM atm.  Timers seem to be a little more plentiful and helpful.

Re oRA2.  If you have it, you have no need for CTRA.  oRA2 answers all /radur, /razone, /raitem etc queries etc.

TL.

[Gorion]

ora2 arranged,
 
anything else? was thinking about getting this out today

[Bob]

Looks fine by me. Just get it out there asap

[spiritus]

looks ok from here too..

[Bob]

added a new rule in the invite section - forgot about that one

I quess that one was the one you were aiming for?

(these rules have been discussed and agreed by the Officers)
 
INVITE RULES

• If you are not accepted into a raid, and you are queued, you Must stay online for the lenght of that raid aswell.

I do not agree with that - at least not the way it is formulated there. That is kind of the point with a sign-up system, that people should get the opportunity to tell whether they will be raiding or not.

Of course, if people would like to have the chance to get in the raid, they should remain online in the queue, but I don't think we should force people to just "hang around" for no particular reason.

I can see some cases where it would be sensible to have such a rule (e.g. earning the right to be in the next raid due to a rotation system), but I think you should remove it from the list as of now and at least let us discuss it before you publish it.

[Gorion]

I do not agree with that - at least not the way it is formulated there. That is kind of the point with a sign-up system, that people should get the opportunity to tell whether they will be raiding or not.

if they signed up for the raid, that means theyre available to raid untill they cancel their singup, there is no reason for a queue unless theyre online. or reachable on TS.
 
and lets face it, no one uses ts while playing anymore
 
if an aceppted raider is dced for a long time, or a kick is issued - raid leaders turn to the queue. if the members in the queue are not online to do that, the raid might be called off.
 
that in my view is unacapptable, it used to be that way, it should remain that way.

[TeaLeaf]

I can see both sides of the argument atm.  The problem is that this is a stick with no carrot.  In Genesis we have a queue and people must be available to zone in - but this does not mean they cannot go do something else in the mean time, so long as they can be reached via TS (if they're playing another game for example) or in game on their main or an alt.  I was in a queue the whole of Thursday, but offline for most of the night, but they knew how to get hold of me and I could zone in when and if needed.  The carrot is that I got full DKP for being in the queue the whole night even though I was not in WoW.

It is much more difficult to make demands of players when they get nothing in return and the raid is run on a more sociaql than formal basis.  

I would suggest changing your loot system to provide the carrot, then having an accompanying stick works well.  The way we did it in the past worked sort   of ok, but was not perfect and that's why Genesis do it differently now.  Might be something for SOG to consider?

TL.

[Bob]

if they signed up for the raid, that means theyre available to raid untill they cancel their singup, there is no reason for a queue unless theyre online. or reachable on TS.

So as long as people cancel their sign-up if they see they don't get a spot in the raid, that would be all fine?

As Saori commented on his sign-up at the sign-up site: "Well, since im queued up i think i will spend the sunday evening at cinema with GF. Good luck in Kaz, have fun!"
Would you really make him sit in front of his computer the whole evening, waiting for a spot in the raid which most likely won't even happen, instead of going to the cinema with his GF?
Yes, he signed up in the first place, but as TL said, as long as we don't have any kind of "carrot" to make it worth while staying in the queue, it wouldn't be fair to force people to be there.

As we don't use DKP in Kara, we can't use that as a carrot. And I do not think we should introduce DKP in Kara just to have that carrot - it has worked out very well with loot distribution this far without it.
The only possible "carrot" I see we can offer at the moment, is if we make a structured rotation system. Than we could say that to get one credit in the rotation system (meaning that you will be guaranteed a spot in the next raid), you are required to be online, or at least reachable on TS, so that you can join the raid if needed during the evening.

[Gorion]

you aint getting my point mate,
 
aslong as he signups for a particular raid he should be online or reachable via TS, regardless if he gets aceppted or queued. If he wanted to go out having fun with his GF, he shouldnt have signed up in the first place.
 
there should be no carrot to make you do your duty and keep your word given when you signup, it is your responsability to do your job and keep your word.
 
there might be some extreme cases were a certain signed up person has to really do something extremely important, but going out having fun doesnt fall into that area, since he was going nowere if he was aceppted
 
we have to draw a line somewere, and thats exectly were it should be drawn down. we also need to add another rule that states, it aint possible to retire your signup on the day of the raid, or after the approval of raid members.
 
it might be harsh, but its time to get the hat on and take a stand, or this will be abused of

[Bob]

aslong as he signups for a particular raid he should be online or reachable via TS, regardless if he gets aceppted or queued. If he wanted to go out having fun with his GF, he shouldnt have signed up in the first place.

Look at it the other way. What if we only had 9 persons signed up for a raid, and the reason why Saori didn't sign up was that he wanted to spend the evening with his GF if he didn't get to raid. But because of your strict rule, he would risk having to sit in front of his computer a whole evening, doing nothing but waiting for a possible spot, and because of this he didn't sign up at all. Result: no run happened, because we weren't enough people.

there should be no carrot to make you do your duty and keep your word given when you signup, it is your responsability to do your job and keep your word.

We are a social raiding guild. As far as what is the members duties, I believe that is to sign up for a raid if you want to raid, and to be in time and stay for the whole raid if you get a spot. It could also be sensible to have the members cancel their spot in the queue if they don't plan on being online during the evening.

If we were to add some kind of rule to those in the queue, we could say that everybody had to be online for when the invites go out. This would cover the case where somebody approved to raid doesn't show up. Anything more than this would be totally unfair to the members in my opinion.

[Gorion]

We are a social raiding guild. As far as what is the members duties, I believe that is to sign up for a raid if you want to raid, and to be in time and stay for the whole raid if you get a spot. It could also be sensible to have the members cancel their spot in the queue if they don't plan on being online during the evening.

 
read again:
 
there should be no carrot to make you do your duty and keep your word given when you signup, it is your responsability to do your job and keep your word.

we also need to add another rule that states, it aint possible to retire your signup on the day of the raid, or after the approval of raid members.
 
youre misunderstanding everything

[Bob]

youre misunderstanding everything

I am not misunderstanding anything! I see that you have a very different belief on what we should expect of commitment from our members than what I have, but I understand you perfectly fine.

I still believe, that the way SOG is taking on raiding, you can not in my opinion expect anyone to spend 4-5 hours just sitting in front of their computer waiting for a possible spot - which also most likely will never happen.
How many times since we started raiding have we been relying on having people in the queue to fill up an empty spot? Not too often. And I would also guess that the few times it has happened (and will happen in the future), there will most likely be somebody online who can take the spot.

But the bottom line of my argumentation is that it is totally out of proportions to force people to be in the queue for a whole evening if they won't get anything at all in return for it.
We are as far away from a hard-core raiding guild as you can get, and with that follows a very casual style of playing, meaning, that if people get a spot, they should be there on time and for the whole rad, be repaired and potted up etc - but that is pretty much it.

[TeaLeaf]

The difference between the two of you is in the wording only I believe.  

People can sign up in the hope of being approaved for the raid.  You might have some people not approved who might then go to the cinema.

You might then also have a list of people in the queue on the night.

The two are separate and if you look at it that way you agree with each tother.

[Bob]

People can sign up in the hope of being approaved for the raid.  You might have some people not approved who might then go to the cinema.

You might then also have a list of people in the queue on the night.

Yes, that is what I mean at least. If that's Gorion's opinion as well, than there is no problem