Builds troubles

Halakria · June 11, 2007, 01:05:20 PM

Hi all

I've a doubt about talents, i'm full frost atm, this is my profile
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/mage/talents.html?0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002535321310235313251551

The respeccing that makes me think is
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/mage/talents.html?0050052300230150330125000000000000000000000000535000300230000000000

Now, benefits from full frost are really many, barrier, block, elemental, etc...
About damage i take bonuses from
Piercing Ice 3/3 Frost dam increased by 6%
Artic Winds 5/5 Frost dam increased by 5%
Empowered Frostbolt 5/5 Frostbolt gains another 10% by my frost damage bonus

It's also important to underline that Frostbolt got a +5% crit chance and after 5 hits (that can be 5 GCD since i can use Ice Lance) i gain a +10% crit on all frost dam. I'll use molten armor or at least mage one against Bosses, 'cos Ice one is useless since i should get no aggro and they're immune to nova and frostbite. So my frostbolt crit chance "on duty" is around 33%, if i'm not missing anything.

Now my doubts

Does Arcane Mind affects Int or only mana? If it expands only mana than it's useless for both +dam +crit, in the other case i'll gain some bonuses.
Is Mind Mastery (damage increased by up to 25% of my total Int) better than Artic Winds + Empowered Frostbolt?
I'll sure cast longer and prolly crit higher in the arc/frost build, but how much more?
Does is worth the lost of all frost benefits? No Ice Barrier, reduced outside PVE efficiency, no elemental, no nova/frostbite 5K crit assured

Sorry for the long post but to me problem is serious

Tnx all, Halakria/Luke

kregoron · June 11, 2007, 01:39:55 PM

Fire is the way to pwn tbh.. Ill post my spec when i get home.. with some adjustments as im setup for Krosh tanking..

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-talents.xml?r=Aszune&n=Kregoron
that is my current talent setup.. for example the Arcane focus isnt really worth anything, but i needed it when i tanked Krosh.. Spec works brilliant for PvE DPS/PvP

TeaLeaf · June 11, 2007, 02:33:43 PM

Quote from: Halakria;193532Now my doubts

Sorry for the long post but to me problem is serious
Tnx all, Halakria/Luke

Does Arcane Mind affects Int or only mana? If it expands only mana than it's useless for both +dam +crit, in the other case i'll gain some bonuses.

Arcane Mind increases Int, which means mana & crit go up. Int = mana & Int = crit.

Is Mind Mastery (damage increased by up to 25% of my total Int) better than Artic Winds + Empowered Frostbolt?

Unless you are seriously considering going Deep Frost then this is a moot point as you do not have the talent points in that tree to go for it. If you switch to deep frost then you'll gain some survivability and increase your frost dps, but as we have no idea what your crit rate is and your current int then we have no way of comparing them. If you know these facts then it is a reaosnably simple thing to calculate which would give higher DPS.

I'll sure cast longer and prolly crit higher in the arc/frost build, but how much more?

Cast longer than and crit higher than what? I use a fire build on my mage and as long as I manage use of stones and the occasional mana pot (after all they drop free i most instances nowadays) then I do not have any mana problems even in 10 minute fights, so 'cast longer' I think is a red herring - if casting longer means that the mob has extra minutes to beat on you then it is a bad thing! As for crits, fire crits higher than frost. Period.

Does is worth the lost of all frost benefits? No Ice Barrier, reduced outside PVE efficiency, no elemental, no nova/frostbite 5K crit assured

Depends what you do. If you PVP all the time then your build has more use. If you want to raid with it on the other hand.........

An Aside
Magic Attunement = wasted points. Use Arcane Subtlety if you are going deep in that tree too for the party/raid threat reduction.

Fire is not better than Frost, it's just different. For raiding I would suggest a Fire build. For Raiding with some PVP then I still reckon my fire build works. If your focus is PVP and you'll only raid as a backup then other builds work better.

My 2 cents.

TL.

sheepy · June 11, 2007, 03:21:39 PM

this is my build m8
http://armory.wow-europe.com/#character-talents.xml?r=Aszune&n=Sheepher

as u can see im fire spec. this is a build that i enjoy.

I think u are better going with the full forst build, thats just my opinion tho, didnt u just get the frozen shadowweave bits? so they will b a bit unused if u go more arcane.

Halakria · June 11, 2007, 03:42:50 PM

Tnx both for answering

I would like to remain frost so i'll consider fire only if frost will be not sufficient in raid.

Answering to TL:

I'm doing considerations simply between the 2 builds i sent, so my questions are about the differences between them.

I'll consider only frostbolt to do some simple calculations, its crit rate is 33% on duty and my +dam is +770, i usually hit for 1.4k+ and crit 2.8-3k.
My int is around 415, mana pool 8156.

"I'll sure cast longer and prolly crit higher in the arc/frost build, but how much more?

Cast longer than and crit higher than what? "

Atm my crit bonus damage modification is 100% on frost(i crit double the hit value), in the arc/frost build will be 150% so i'm expecting to crit higher than now.
I'll also cast for more time doing almost the same damage or maybe a bit more, 'cos mana cost will be the same but mana pool will be increased by 15%.

"Is Mind Mastery (damage increased by up to 25% of my total Int) better than Artic Winds + Empowered Frostbolt?"

I already am full frost, so i' actually got Artic Winds + Empowered Frostbolt, but by respeccing i'll lost them and gain Mind Mastery; the question wasn't about reaching them by changing the 2nd build, but simply considering wich build gives more damage, sorry for the bad explanation.

Tnx for the other considerations, i'll surely use Arcane Subtlety instead of Magic Attunement.

Hal

Halakria · June 11, 2007, 03:46:38 PM

Hi sheepy

Yes you're right, i got 2/3 frost shadoweave set and this is one of the reasons i'll like to remain near frost.
Going arc/frost is not so bad 'cos frostb will still be my main attack, but surely outside raid i'll be less effective.
Tnx for the opinion

sheepy · June 11, 2007, 03:50:08 PM

i think the only way that you can tell if your build is significant in a raid will b to try it. get in to one of the riads and check ur dps against mine, my dps is around +900 now

The Giant advantage with having another fire mage in the riad will be that both can stack fire vunrability and the ignite should boost each other.

TeaLeaf · June 11, 2007, 04:36:41 PM

Quote from: sheepy;193567The Giant advantage with having another fire mage in the riad will be that both can stack fire vunrability and the ignite should boost each other.

The debuff stack is shared, but ignite only works on your own spell damage now and is not shred with others - so no massive rolling ignites such as used to be in game.

TL.

TeaLeaf · June 11, 2007, 04:38:14 PM

Halakria, I'll come at it from a different perspective. Why are you considering a respec? Which bit of what you have now are you not content with and where do you plan to use this new build (PVE or PVP etc)?

TL.

TeaLeaf · June 11, 2007, 05:08:46 PM

For pure but relatively simple theorycrafting try using the spreadsheet here:

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=11426

And for a bit deeper analysis try Vontre's spreasdsheet here:

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=10907

Good luck!

TL.

Halakria · June 11, 2007, 07:58:42 PM

Hi again

My intention is to use the best PVE damage build mantaining my gear.
That's why i would like to choose between these 2 configurations, and no, i've no intention to do some pvp atm

I've found this

http://www.arcannis.com/mage_calculations.php

TeaLeaf · June 12, 2007, 07:53:05 AM

Quote from: Halakria;193592I've found this http://www.arcannis.com/mage_calculations.php

Nice find, it seems reasonably consistent with in-game numbers so hopefully it is accurate. What did putting your numbers into that website?

I put mine in for fun and came up with the following sustained damage comments:

Fireball: 10.18 DPM
Frostbolt 6.6 DPM
Arcane Blast 9.95 DPM

Now this is based on my talent build, not yours and my mage's gear, but it seems consistent with what we 'expect' to see in-game: frost sucks for DPS, Arcane and Fire have the edge.

TL.

kregoron · June 12, 2007, 11:59:36 AM

My overall experience of diff fire,arcane and frost builds..

Arcane: Has the ability to reach an insane burst dps, tho arcane is a bit hard on ones mana pool.

Fire: Nice sustained DPS/DPM, survivability isnt so good tho.

Frost: High survivability, tho DPS isnt to high, but fair..

Note that these are just my own experience, this my vary according to gear and playstyle

Halakria · June 14, 2007, 10:04:14 AM

Yup i agree with u Kreg, and i see that damage per mana is not high on frost, mine is around 6.6 too.
In the while i tried the arc/frost config and damage was not so high, the normal hit was the same, the only upgrade was the 4.5k+ crit instead of 3k, but it comes around 22% instead of 33%.
Indicated +dam were 900 in that config but i did less damage than my +770 in full frost, and calculator doesn't include the elemental, that hit for 700 if i remember well, crit a bit and can be summoned twice by me in combat. Assuming a crit rate of 5% (and i think that the elemental crit much more than this) for 1.5 Min my dps are [Edit] near to 1000. (i recalculeted it)