FXRs at Blackwood rev

Iron · November 06, 2007, 12:28:06 PM

Tricky combo it is.

Again, I've been confirmed that these fat slicks are tricky to drive. I just can't feel oversteer, only see it, and since I'm relying on the FFB so much, it's a bit hard to accomodate. To make it more harder, I can't hear the tyres squeal because of the so loud engine. In other cars I'm relying on this squeal to maintain cornering speed on the limit.

Last night I was starting to get used to it though, and the last race was a blast with Aquilifer in front of me. He showed that he is pretty fast on this combo, and although I was at some places really close to him, I was unable to pass him. Really good race mate, I wish every race would be like that.

I also have to apologise about the mistakes I made/make. I have a feeling I make too many of them. I really try not to be "over optimistic" with my moves, but sometimes that red fog descends and can't resist myself, after all, we are racing. Maybe I take it too seriously?

Like last night, I got a good start, gained on Doorman in front of me, got to his back with still a good run to T1. So I got two options: brake and stay behind, or overtake. We were on the left of the track, I thought passing on the right would be risky, since there were others there. I saw a little road on the left of Doorman, so I went there. But soon after the road disappeared, I spun on the grass, taking out the ones behind me. Really embarassing.

Altrezia · November 06, 2007, 12:37:56 PM

I love these cars. Never used to, but with clean lines, they are properly fast.

I seem to do one good lap every 10 - otherwise I clip a kerb and slide/flip.

I managed a 1.10.3~ last night, and hope to bring that down to 1.09 in quali on thursday.

Aquilifer · November 06, 2007, 02:46:06 PM

My problems are when there is wind blowing from a wrong direction. Without wind or light wind I can do alright, but with an unsuitable wind I start to slide in corners and brake and turn in points go wrong. It takes me often the whole short race to get used to the new wind and then the wind is again different in the next race.

I guess the wind affects more when you drive a fast car and maybe it affects the wing downforce too.

If the cars/drivers are roughly equally fast I think the only safe place to overtake is the back straight. The start straight is bit too short for these cars that you could often make a safe overtaking - if you end into T1 side by side, it means often crashing if the other one doesn't back up. Same way trying to overtake in the split 1 straight is insane (imho) unless the other has made a big mistake.

Doorman · November 06, 2007, 03:12:05 PM

That's the thing about huge slicks, they don't squeal in protest, they simply get to the limit of their adhesion and let go! I sometimes surprise myself by approaching a corner quicker than I like only to find the car goes round it! The next time round never seems to work the same. :g:

Iron · November 06, 2007, 03:14:26 PM

Quote from: Aquilifer;212390My problems are when there is wind blowing from a wrong direction. Without wind or light wind I can do alright, but with an unsuitable wind I start to slide in corners and brake and turn in points go wrong. It takes me often the whole short race to get used to the new wind and then the wind is again different in the next race.

I guess the wind affects more when you drive a fast car and maybe it affects the wing downforce too.

I don't know about the wind, I didn't notice that it affects me that much, although I did slide a lot last night, I attributed it to my sloppy driving, because when I finally got into the mood, my lines were okay.

Quote from: Aquilifer;212390If the cars/drivers are roughly equally fast I think the only safe place to overtake is the back straight. The start straight is bit too short for these cars that you could often make a safe overtaking - if you end into T1 side by side, it means often crashing if the other one doesn't back up. Same way trying to overtake in the split 1 straight is insane (imho) unless the other has made a big mistake.

I beg to differ. It certainly is possible to drive side by side through a corner. Sure it's hard, and even harder in the fast cars, but if we never try, how could we get better at it? I race because I want to become better. Not to mention that door-to-door racing is the best thing that racing can offer. I still remember the joy I had from taking three or four corners side by side with romus on FE with the XRTs a few days ago. I couldn't care less if I finished dead last every race, if I had such a good battle every time.

Aquilifer · November 06, 2007, 04:10:56 PM

Quote from: Iron;212394I beg to differ. It certainly is possible to drive side by side through a corner. Sure it's hard, and even harder in the fast cars, but if we never try, how could we get better at it? I race because I want to become better. Not to mention that door-to-door racing is the best thing that racing can offer. I still remember the joy I had from taking three or four corners side by side with romus on FE with the XRTs a few days ago. I couldn't care less if I finished dead last every race, if I had such a good battle every time.

By T1 I ment the right hand corner (not the slight left turn before it). The only proper line is being at the left end before it, touching the apex and exiting via the left side again. it is certainly possible to go the left turn side by side (and I've done it often), but if you try the right hander side by side the right side car is most propably going to squeeze the left car to the wall. That is unless the other car (left or right) backs off enough that crash is avoided. Often this is bit hard to decide if I should back off or the other car because checking sides is hard with keyboard commands (if I try in that point I will certainly crash). T1 can be nasty as I found in some wind directions it can surprise with lot of under steer.

In fast cars the start straight goes so fast and without the other one making mistakes it is hard to get so much side by side that you can claim the right to take T1 first. So if you haven't done the overtaking already coming to the T1 I would abandon the idea there.

The split 1 straight is even more so, because it is shorter. I've tried it many times but just noticing I have to back off because there is simply not enough straight...even if I was faster. Usually the faster the corner is after the straight, the more spectaculiar the crash is if both try to make it at the same time. In hairpins this cause often just minor scrathes.

Because of the bad vision to sides you might think you have the right to take the corner but when the other car closes from side towards the apex you find only then that he was actually ahead of you. If the other tryes to avoid the crash by leaving room for you in the apex, he might go wide unless he uses more the brakes in time. It doesn't look good if you give the other guy a push to the rear corner making him spin. At least I couldn't do that.

If the cars are close side by side (hard to say who 'owns' the corner) and they know they are, it is safer. In that case both have to take it slower. I've done that many times, but I think they are not so common situations. Usually it is quite clear one car has right for the corner (usually looking from the viewpoint of the car in worse position).

What I think about this isn't because I would like to be the first or that it would be a big deal if I'm the last one. It is simply what I think is fair and right towards other racers and also what are the limitations in playing LFS.

So thinking these I repeat the only GOOD overtaking place is the end of the back straight. This is not necessarily same the other direction: I would add then the T1 hairpin (coming to it) and maybe the corner just after split 2. But just my opnions...you can choose to think differently.

Note: Track-IR would be great for solving these side by side situations :g:

Iron · November 06, 2007, 05:03:17 PM

Quote from: Aquilifer;212399By T1 I ment the right hand corner (not the slight left turn before it). The only proper line is being at the left end before it, touching the apex and exiting via the left side again. it is certainly possible to go the left turn side by side (and I've done it often), but if you try the right hander side by side the right side car is most propably going to squeeze the left car to the wall. That is unless the other car (left or right) backs off enough that crash is avoided. Often this is bit hard to decide if I should back off or the other car because checking sides is hard with keyboard commands (if I try in that point I will certainly crash). T1 can be nasty as I found in some wind directions it can surprise with lot of under steer.

I don't quite understand you. Of course T1 is the right hand corner, but what about this "only proper line"?? If you go side by side, noone can have the racing line, both of you has to compromise, and can get through any corner without "squeezing" the other car into the wall/grass. Yes, even in a chicane, you just have to take the corner slower so you can give room to the other.

Quote from: Aquilifer;212399In fast cars the start straight goes so fast and without the other one making mistakes it is hard to get so much side by side that you can claim the right to take T1 first. So if you haven't done the overtaking already coming to the T1 I would abandon the idea there.

I didn't say it's easy to get side by side until T1, I was/am talking about the situation when you _are_ side by side at the turn in point. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Given my limited experience in taking corners side by side, and fearing that the other would not think the same, probably I would back off too, but that doesn't mean it should be like that all the time. But we (as a team) know each other, we could do it, it just takes a little practice.

Quote from: Aquilifer;212399The split 1 straight is even more so, because it is shorter. I've tried it many times but just noticing I have to back off because there is simply not enough straight...even if I was faster. Usually the faster the corner is after the straight, the more spectaculiar the crash is if both try to make it at the same time. In hairpins this cause often just minor scrathes.

Well of course if the two cars collide, it causes trouble, but the point is that you can take corners door to door without colliding. Even fast ones.

Quote from: Aquilifer;212399If the cars are close side by side (hard to say who 'owns' the corner) and they know they are, it is safer. In that case both have to take it slower. I've done that many times, but I think they are not so common situations. Usually it is quite clear one car has right for the corner (usually looking from the viewpoint of the car in worse position).

In case I wasn't clear, I'm talking about situations where the two cars are side by side at the turn in point. I'm not talking about dive bombing into the inside of the other car from 20 meters back.

Quote from: Aquilifer;212399What I think about this isn't because I would like to be the first or that it would be a big deal if I'm the last one. It is simply what I think is fair and right towards other racers and also what are the limitations in playing LFS.

I have to agree there with you, the limitations of racing by watching only 17-21" wide monitor is quite big. Yet, one can still try to achieve.

Quote from: Aquilifer;212399Note: Track-IR would be great for solving these side by side situations :g:

I fear that it would disconnect me from the car, as some of those who tried it said. Since you don't have a fixed view point anymore with TrackIR, you can't judge the yaw angle (oversteer) of the car that easily. Maybe you can accomodate to that too, I don't know.

Aquilifer · November 06, 2007, 06:02:45 PM

Quote from: Iron;212402I don't quite understand you. Of course T1 is the right hand corner, but what about this "only proper line"?? If you go side by side, noone can have the racing line, both of you has to compromise, and can get through any corner without "squeezing" the other car into the wall/grass. Yes, even in a chicane, you just have to take the corner slower so you can give room to the other.

Well, I started to think maybe you were talking about the slight left hander (the blind one) just before the tighter right hand corner. I counted this right hander as T1...or maybe you could even think them combined as T1.... :g:

I was trying to emphasis that this T1 isn't one of those corners I would like very much going side by side. It seems to be one of those corners wher it turns even less in the outside line.

The other car has to be really parallel or trying to overtake in a chicane for example is really...noobish. It comes to who has right for the corner. In those parallel situations you can think that nobody had a clear right for the corner so it was left to be seen which one has more guts, luck and skill.

Quote from: Iron;212402I didn't say it's easy to get side by side until T1, I was/am talking about the situation when you _are_ side by side at the turn in point. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

See last point.

Yes, well I tryed to brake it into 2 situations. The other being when the 2 cars are really so much side by side that it is hard to say who own the corner.

I checked my earlier post where I talked about 'safe' overtaking places. Maybe it would have better using word 'good'.

Quote from: Iron;212402Given my limited experience in taking corners side by side, and fearing that the other would not think the same, probably I would back off too, but that doesn't mean it should be like that all the time. But we (as a team) know each other, we could do it, it just takes a little practice.

Yes. I prefer backing off if I'm not sure I have right to take the corner first. Saves me from lot of after race arguing, naming and shouting. But then there are those cases when you...sense or kind of know that the other person knows you are there, you are side by side and neither one wants to back off... fair racing in that case.

Quote from: Iron;212402Well of course if the two cars collide, it causes trouble, but the point is that you can take corners door to door without colliding. Even fast ones.

My point was that in case of misjudging the situation it is much safer to do that in a hairpin than in a 200km/h corner (to my experience). And not talking those T1 kamikazes you see in BL1 demo servers.

I think a good overtaking place is often at the end of a long straight. Even better if the enxt corner is so that you have to slow down a lot and make a sharp turn. T1 in BL1 is good becaue of the hard braking into the hairpin. The chicane in BL1R is quite good, because of the long straight. Only the quite shallow turn into the chicane make it bit riskier.

Quote from: Iron;212402I fear that it would disconnect me from the car, as some of those who tried it said. Since you don't have a fixed view point anymore with TrackIR, you can't judge the yaw angle (oversteer) of the car that easily. Maybe you can accomodate to that too, I don't know.

Haven't tried. Just thought it would be an easy and fast way to see where the other car is.

delanvital · November 06, 2007, 07:05:03 PM

Minor comment regarding TrackIR - yes, you can use it for sideways view, but you rarely do it, because when swirling your view to the side and back does not come as natural as in real life. When you swirl back you need a little bit of, hm, "adjustment" in your view which means you lose the sense of direction. I slowly view a little sideways once in a while, but mostly use for keeping car on the apex and such.

Doorman · November 06, 2007, 07:16:14 PM

Blimey! What a lively debate. On the TrackIR thing, it doesn't disconnect you from the car any more than your own head does in a real car. In fact it frees you up enormously. Mine didn't work the other day because of the sun streaming through the window so I turned it off. It was like having my head in a vice. My hat's off to those of you who drive with a fixed view.
On the other hand TIR doesn't always afford the advantages you might expect. It doesn't stand in for peripheral vision, you must turn your head to look out the side window, not to be taken lightly when you're wheel to wheel with someone in the middle of a bend.

Iron · November 06, 2007, 08:09:02 PM

Quote from: Doorman;212410Blimey! What a lively debate.

Comments are welcome!

Not just two of us should debate, make your points/opinion gentlemen.

Quote from: Doorman;212410On the TrackIR thing, it doesn't disconnect you from the car any more than your own head does in a real car. In fact it frees you up enormously. Mine didn't work the other day because of the sun streaming through the window so I turned it off. It was like having my head in a vice. My hat's off to those of you who drive with a fixed view.
On the other hand TIR doesn't always afford the advantages you might expect. It doesn't stand in for peripheral vision, you must turn your head to look out the side window, not to be taken lightly when you're wheel to wheel with someone in the middle of a bend.

Yeah, I'm more inclined to buy two more monitors, and make a 3 monitor setup.

Aquilifer · November 06, 2007, 10:52:49 PM

Quote from: Iron;212413Yeah, I'm more inclined to buy two more monitors, and make a 3 monitor setup.

Yeah. That does have many benefits. Like you can see it in the corner of your eye if there is somebody on your side. No need to turn your head. In flight sims trackir is still much better because you need to look up too. ... I think...I have no experience on either type of systems.

Bad side is that you have to invest on 3 monitors and a gfx card which can handle them... and a cpu which can make use of the gpu power. :sideways:

This thread is going off topic really fast :doh:

Altrezia · November 07, 2007, 11:28:31 PM

Wahoo!

1:09.75

Hope I can beat that in Quali tomorrow.

night night guys.

Altrezia · November 08, 2007, 10:11:47 PM

That was annoying. Great first few laps, then the tyres went off and i went from OK to really pants.

Cheers for the racing everyone..

Ally · November 08, 2007, 10:23:13 PM

Wow, I finished.

Hehe, although i was lapped 9 times, i thoroughly enjoyed that. I reckon i pitted at the right time, although it took 24 seconds to repair all the damage i'd caused. Also i knocked my PB down again:). Thanks for letting me race with you (although i didn't put up much of a race(except for getting past me on blue flags:narnar:)) I'll do lots more practise then maybe i wont be lapped SO many times

. Sorry if i got in anyones way :doh: