Can someone clear this up?

[obsolum]

I just did a few "practise" laps in LFS to see how it goes (with my back). I was having a good race with Delanvital until we had a little incident going into T1 of lap 4. Apparently we both have different views on who was "in the wrong". I hope Delanvital doesn't mind me bringing this up here, it's just that I'm very curious about this. I don't want to slag anyone off or anything.

I'll sketch the situation: we're side by side going down the start/finish straight going into lap 4. Delanvital's got a slight speed advantage so he slowly creeps ahead of me on my right hand side - the inside for T1.

As we approach the corner he starts to move to the outer left side of the track, which is the ideal line for the corner entry, and it's the line I'm on. He's not fully passed me yet, though (say, 95%?). He keeps moving towards me, but being the hardass that I am I'm thinking "I don't know what you plan to do buddy, but I'm on my line and I'm holding it :boxing:". So as he moves onto my line he taps my front, causing him to spin. I explain that he was not fully past me yet, he then says to me that I should have lifted off to let him position himself in front of me so he could take the ideal line into the corner.

Now, I've done quite a few races but this is the first time I've ever heard of a rule like that It seems to defeat the purpose of racing, for a great part IMO. If you're making a pass on the straight but don't manage to get back on the racing line in time for the next corner, then you're just gonna have to adapt your racing line, and possibly go through a corner side by side - which is great fun and very thrilling, by the way, if you pull it off; that's the way I see it. Apparently Delanvital's way is the way they do it in the BTCC, but it just seems so wrong and unfair to me!

So anyway, here's the replay. Fast forward to 7:15 and watch from the helicopter view to see what happened.

I'd love to get you guys' opinions on this, because if Delanvital is right then I'll have to adjust my mindset and keep that in mind for future races.

[Jamin]

It's about ball size, Delanvital bullied you, you didn't give, he crashed, you didn't, Delanvital won't try that on you again.

I'd have tipped him off too if he drove into me. :boxing:

[Doorman]

I concur. You had nowhere to go but the grass, you were driving straight, he came in too soon. Off with his head!

[Luminance]

Unlucky Delan, better luck next time (or should I say, watch out better next time )

[Romus]

What's good with dMr type of racing is that you learn each racers style and know how to fight with each one. Now you've had one good lesson. Del could have taken the not so optimal line, thus letting you to choose better line for the next corner and you could possible have overtaking him there. That's racing. :boxing:

I'n perhaps a bit too careful driver, but my style is to be very careful especially with drivers who I don't know yet. Sometimes my sheepish style costs me places just because I don't want to crash. If I had been Obsolum I might have given room (I did not watch the replay), and had done my best to regain my place later on. But generally I think it is the passing car that must make sure that the overtaking is clean.

[Seany]

I agree with Romus

[lovretta]

IMO this was completely Delanvital's fault.
I didn't watch it from helicopter view, as you suggested, i watched it only from your onboard view.

Sorry Delanvital, i don't know you, but expecting him to lift off there  is wrong thinking.
If you two were in daily traffic, and you were signaling with turn indicator that you are about to change lane, then it would be ok for obsolum to slow down....Not in this situation.

[easyed]

Watched the replay .....

Two stories -

1) One of the first online "encounters" I had was very similar .... I had about 50% overlap and a guy kept closing the door slowly down the Blackwood straight, I lost control...we both crashed.  I told him "thanks" and he said sumptin to the effect "next time, brake".  I have since come to accept this view -  except, see below.

2) In a r/l GT2 race a few weeks ago, I saw a racer push another off in a turn, but the guy didn't lose contol, came right back on and did a "pit maneuver" , sending the other guy into a spin, while he merrily tooled on down the road.  The commentatators just chuckled about the pusher getting his just deserts !!

In case 2, the guy getting pushed knew what was happening, held his position, kept control and was able to get his revenge - and apparently no foul.  I don't know if that's a good standard for LFS and other racing sims, but it is real life racing is some classes I guess.

now for the except part....... In both the case of obsolum and my own, the result was both racers off.  I watched the replay from obsolum's pov, and he had almost no time to back off, and it looks like delanvital didn't know he was cutting off obsolum.  Really, obsolum didn't have the choice to avoid danger.  So a risky/neglectful move by delanvital.  Now if obsolum did see it coming (you were there mate, not me), then to avoid accident, he could/should have braked.  A racing incident - delanvital had the "right", but was it wise? :norty:

In my case, the other driver knew I was there, and I knew he was there.... he kept "pushing" me to the right side down the Blackwood straight ..... I could have backed off, or he could have stopped closing the door ..... we both took the chance and both paid for it. Again, wise? :norty:

Now to generalize about dMr style racing - every time I'm on the dMr server, I am surprised at how consistently racers leave others "space".  On most servers, I won't try side-by-side turns, but with dMr guys, it works ...... dMr racers almost leave too much space .... almost too polite :narnar: So the occasional "aggressive" driving stands out.

[delanvital]

First of all, I did not "try to ram you of the road". Nor did I attempt to deliberately block you. I glimpsed - twice - with TrackIR and figured I was safe. I am not a "hardass" at all - I don't mind letting people go past me and often do. I am sure Ron can vouch for my obsession with clean, gentleman's racing

The rules I referred to are not something I grabbed out of thin air. I have followed those for quite a few years driving GTL, TC before that and IndyCar, to name a few. The rules are basically some corner rules applied on straights. If the overtaker is less than halfway up the side of the leader, measured through a line across the track, it is the leader who can close the line. If further up than that, the leader can't close and the battle ensures.

I guess the rules has come along because poor sim side mirrors and the poor turn-of-head, resulting in huge blind spots, making it very difficult to place the following cars. That is why I like those rules, because they would avoid a crash like the one we had today. The one who can actually see what is happening, guides the show, until the attacker is obvious.

However - I believe the basic rule of all racing, RL or not, and regardless of any other rule, is to avoid crashes at all costs. I already follow the dMr way of racing, simply because crashing is so frustrating for everyone and I don't plan on force people into the grass!

If I should make the same unlucky move, believing I am clear, I hope you will forgive me and be less hard on me and instead give me room. Let me know of my mistake and I will let you pass right away.

That way we both can continue racing, with all wheels on the car, and keep our place in the race. Nothing sucks more than both of us out of the race

[Doorman]

First of all, I did not "try to ram you of the road". Nor did I attempt to deliberately block you.

Steady on! No-one has suggested you tried either of those things. :flirty:

I glimpsed - twice - with TrackIR and figured I was safe. I am not a "hardass" at all - I don't mind letting people go past me and often do. I am sure Ron can vouch for my obsession with clean, gentleman's racing .

I can.


As I see it, obsolum has raised a point of order. Opinions were sought and received. I watched the replay from everyones point of view, not just helocopter. If I was in obs seat I would have held that line and made you take the place the hard way. There's no point in rolling over and giving it away! I like to think, that if I was in your seat with TIR I would err on the side of thinking that I was not able to come back to my preferred line. But that's racing! Stuff happens. This thread ought not to have been raised because both of you know the score. A quick 'Oops!' 'Sorry' and a 'lol' would have done it

So shake hands and let's go for a beer.

[Mille Sabords]

I'll get the beer and a look at the replay when work allows.
In the meantime I have to say that even if one of the 2 drivers that crash was right, he still sits in a sandtrap... Does it feel any better to sit in the sandtrap knowing you were right?

I usually prefer to crash on my own much more satisfying, as I know who is to blame.

[Lameduck]

A quick 'Oops!' 'Sorry' and a 'lol' would have done it

So shake hands and let's go for a beer.

It has certainly done one thing and thats ensure that we all use the same rule book, LFS Manual. http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Clean_Racers_Club_Rules

O-5: Leading drivers have the right to choose any line down a straight.
The leading driver may make one move to block the opposing car, and one move to return to the racing line before the next corner - Unless the opposing car has overlap.

[obsolum]

Thank you all for your input and opinions I would like to stress, though, that I in no way blame Delanvital for anything or have any kind of negative feelings toward him or the incident. We're all Dead Men Racing here and attitudes like that have no place here :flirty: If anything I felt really bad for causing him to crash, even if at the time I believed I didn't do anything wrong. It's always unfortunate if a good battle ends with one or both drivers off the track. And for the record, I didn't really go off the track, I could have just continued on my way. I just slammed on the brakes to explain myself and maybe wait for Delanvital to get back on track so we could continue our little fight, but that didn't happen

Also, like I said in the first post, I didn't start this thread to point the finger at anyone, like "hey guys, look at what Delanvital did to me! I'm right and he's wrong, don't you agree??" Nothing like that. I was genuinely curious as to whether I'd been racing with the wrong attitude all this time. And what better place to ask than here.

Now, about some of the points raised, of course it's better to avoid an incident if you can rather than being stubborn and keeping to your line (even though I still believe that's the way you should race ). Especially if you're just racing for fun. The truth is I didn't expect him to keep moving over, as I'd never had that happen with anyone on the dMr server I had also never been in direct battle with Delanvital before, so the point Romus raised about getting to know each driver's style of racing is a valid one. I'll definitely keep this in mind next time I'm side by side with Del

Right, I know what I wanted to know, so this thread has served its purpose as far as I'm concerned. Thanks again everyone

[Doorman]

It has certainly done one thing and thats ensure that we all use the same rule book, LFS Manual. http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Clean_Racers_Club_Rules

O-5: Leading drivers have the right to choose any line down a straight.
The leading driver may make one move to block the opposing car, and one move to return to the racing line before the next corner - Unless the opposing car has overlap.

You can't pluck one line out of that section and apply it in isolation. Reading those rules is very interesting. They've covered all the bases except one. What is sufficient overlap? If you apply common sense, 'overlap' isn't enough! You must surely be past the other car before pulling back?

The whole section: (I like 0.2)

Overtaking

 O-1: To obtain right of road position in a corner, the overtakers car must have substantial overlap of the car that is being overtaken, before they reach the corners turn-in point. Should the overtaking car not have enough overlap, the leading car may resume his racing line without fear of contact.
O-2: The car on the outside has the right to outside room all the way through the corner ââ,¬â€œ right up to the exit point. They should not be squeezed against the outside towards the exit point.
O-3: The car on the inside has the right to inside room all the way through the corner - right up to the exit point. They should not be squeezed against the inside towards the apex area. The ahead driver can still battle for the position of course but must do so while maintaining side room for the behind driver. The practice of going up the inside of an ahead car after they have already turned in, and where there was no established substantial overlap before the turn-in point, is sometimes referred to as barge passing, ( I.e. you barge your way past ). Understand that barge passing is a high risk manoeuvre for both you and others. You have no rights what-so-ever as a barge passer. Should you cause an accident from a barge passing manoeuvre youââ,¬â,,¢ll be in a defenceless position should you be protested!
O-4: Where a leading driver has clearly made a sufficient error to warrant a passing move a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. E.g. - If the leading driver brakes too late and drifts out wide of the apex and then has to reduce speed etc. This would be a valid passing opportunity regardless of whether there was pre-existing overlap. However, there is still substantial responsibility on the overtaking driver to take all necessary care to avoid contact. Small errors by the leading driver may not be sufficient to justify an attacking passing move however. Just because the ahead drivers gets a bit out of shape at times doesnââ,¬â,,¢t give you an automatic right to pass uncontested by them or a right to room. You still have to judge if their error provides sufficient opportunity for a safe pass to take place.
O-5: Leading drivers have the right to choose any line down a straight. The leading driver may make one move to block the opposing car, and one move to return to the racing line before the next corner - Unless the opposing car has overlap.
O-6: Leading drivers have the right to take any line through a corner, unless an opposing car has overlap.

However good those rules are it gives people the idea that things are cut and dried. Courtesy and common sense play a huge part. iRacing has pointed out in it's 'Code of Conduct' that it takes two to have a collision and so ask yourself what you could have done to avoid it. Although in this case (imho) Del was in the 'wrong' Obsolum could have lifted just a smidgen, ipso facto, no prang.



P.S. Don't get me started about cutting! :lmfao:

[Zootoxin]

P.S. Don't get me started about cutting! :lmfao:

What about cutting?