What is spawn raping?

[big-paddy]

I hear many times, and have commented myself, on spawn rapers. My question is what do we mean by that? We should have, or not, an agreed idea of what spawn raping is before we try to enforce any such rule.

Spawns change in this game, one can find oneself behind the enemy, one can be shot from the enemy's base. However the game also enforces certain control, such as out of bounds.

For me I cannot see a simple description of spawn rape and unless its simple it will not wash.

BP

[TeaLeaf]

If the objective for the defending team is to 'fall back' as instructed in game to defend the next two objectives then it is arguable that by camping in the previous (now destroyed) objectives which are now the attacking team's primary spawn point is nothing but frag hunting.   Nothing wrong with shooting into it from afar, but I for one think that the individual who plays that way is not really out there for team work?  That would be my definition of spawn-raping.

[Gone_Away]

Paddy,
 
This will be detailed in the Server Rules for folks to play by. My current thinking is such:
 
1. When the attackers have destroyed the two objectives, it is their responsibility to "clear the area" of any remaining defenders.
2. Defenders still in the area are clear to engage until they have been cleared out. This will include squad mates re-spawning on any living defender. Ergo, the Attackers must clear all defenders out.
3. Defenders should not go into the "new" attacker's base to either frag hunt or steal vehicles.
 
In practice that is what happens but it's point 3 that we will have to enforce.
 
Of course, all of the above will need to be approved by the Game Leader and Admins.

[Blunt]

Hope you don't mind if I chip in wth an observation:)

I can give you a prime example which happened last night.

Not Spawn Rape
We had lost our base and the map opened up, most of my team were dead and respawning at the new base. I found myself alone amongst the spawning enemy. It would've been impolite not to stab and shoot as many as I could before they discovered me.

Spawn Rape
Some fella kept sneaking into our spawn base to kill me on the UAV and then sniping us from behind. He returned to his position several times after being killed. He was warned after I mentioned it and was kicked (he returned and behaved ok after that)

Spawn Rape?
From their own spawn Sniping into your spawn and shooting you as you appear in their sights.

But none of them are straightforwards.
In the 1st scenario, what if the rest of my squad had spawned on me? we'd have a whole squad behind the enemy. A great tactic some would say, after all, it's the attackers who should check the base is cleared out before they move off.
In the second scenario, I was spotting, gunning down and missiling from the UAV, and creating general havoc. I even took down a couple of choppas. It may be a good tactic to try to take out the operator.?
3rd scenario. that's called sniping:sideways:

A difficult one this, good luck:g:

[big-paddy]

It seems to me that there is an issue of intent arising.

1. If I am left in a base as Blunt describes, should I lay down and die?
2. If I climb sniper hill to stab snipers picking us off at our spawn is that wrong?
3. If I go to spawns and stab UAV operators. Not snipe or frag. Is that different?

1. is a consequence of losing the base, not an intentional act. So that seems relatively clear.
2. I guess everyone could become snipers. Teamwork could be employed here and indeed at some point someone has to do 'something' about the snipers. I also would like further checks on if sniper hill is indeed within the drop zone, or how close to it it is. Nevertheless there are other scenarios on other maps where a bit of side-swiping snipers is useful. So I am still not clear on this.
3. seems more difficult, or the most simple. It shouldn't be too hard to declare a do not return to lost bases rule. I'm sure that we would then need a clear definition of when pushing back becomes raping. I worry about a rule book that is so complex that no-one can remember it.

I liked the answers by the way. I'm still not clear though. I guess it would be easier if the game made the base out of bounds always.

BP

[T-Bag]

The following is my personal opinions and not a set of rules:

I personally don't like the idea of entering someones base deliberately for any reason, even killing a UAV operator. I don't mind if you can shoot in on some maps, but if you're supposed to be defending then walking over a ridge to see the enemy spawn isn't dmw style (but shooting from near the MCom position is fine and should be done if the opportunity arises - providing you're still defending the objectives - certain levels have ridges where you can defend and shoot into spawns I don't mind this if they're not deliberately forward towards their spawn).

Stealing vehicles and running around the enemy spawn is unacceptable in all cases except the first that blunt mentions, where you do what damage you can before the boundaries expand, when they do expand don't respawn on someone in that position or head there on foot or in any land vehicle (UAV and Helis providing people aren't jumping into the spawn are again fine by me), but feel free to carry on hammering them or even reviving teammates while you're there, generally this won't last more than 30 seconds or so. Deliberately hiding and popping out to get some cheap kills crosses a line with this though.

Hopefully I've made myself clear, anything spawn related that is deliberately annoying is probably against the spirit of our gameplay style.

[big-paddy]

So I think I have some simple (I need simple) ideas we seem to be agreeing or at least moving towards. For defenders in rush mode at least.

1. When a base falls, you can fight your way out. This doesn't mean hanging around, get to your own base and defend.
2. Never return to a lost base for any reason.

I'm not sure about this,
3. when falling back don't take vehicles?

The map specific thing may be important for the start of the game, or out of bounds may cover this, and for defining what is an advanced defence and what is baseraping. In practice the latter will be managed by admins, but we should share some understanding of where the line exists. Again if this is an easy landmark to shout about then all the better.

For attackers in rush mode. I guess go anywhere is OK? And they can steal defenders vehicles?

[T-Bag]

I'm not sure about this,
3. when falling back don't take vehicles?

I've got no problem with them nicking vehicles, if they do so while leaving. There would be nothing worse than them jumping in a tank and killing everyone that spawns for 5 mins.

[big-paddy]

I think I feel the same. The problem as I see it is if you leave a bit. Just away from the spawn. It feels simpler to say don't take vehicles even though it is quite a yomp sometimes to the next base.

I was thinking not to take newly spawned vehicles, but I don't think that is any simpler really.

Anyone else have a view on TWOCing?

And is it free for all for attackers. They can steal vehicles, but defenders cannot? They can camp?

[Gone_Away]

I'm in favour of supporting the rule that attackers must clear out the defenders. The defenders can do as they like while in their old base (including respawning on their squad members) until the attackers clear them out. This would include jumping in a tank or even blowing them up.
 
Realistically, look at the odds. Max squad size is 4. Max team size is 16. that's 4-1 odds in favour of the attackers for clearing the defenders out.
 
It is possible that multiple squads will have a defender lurking about but normally they are killed off quite quickly.
 
I therefore don't see an issue and also think it's easier to admin by having a "no return" policy.

[GhostMjr]

I have been watching how this thread has progressed and feel the time is right to both draw it to a conclusion and to add in any rules if any needed to be added to to the public and dmw rules draft.

In short survivors on the defending team should be allowed to take vehicles if they are nearby and not running from their original spawn to take their opponents vehicle. It gives them the tactical advantage as often defenders are not given any vehicles at all apart from what is left or abandoned by the attacking team.

Running into someone's spawn to take out a uav operator is spawn raping if we allow that the person who goes in to kill the operator the sin of greed once they realise their tactical advantage of being alive and killing players as they spawn.

The player is not near their objective which is to defend the sites NOT to kill or gain points by shooting the UAV operator. The UAV can be taken down without needing to take down the operator so this is how the rules will stand UAV can only be taken down by air and operator may be killed in the event that the spawn or bombsite is overun during a capture rush.

To clarify any player on our server who enters the attacking or defending spawn for any reason apart from being the remnants of an original defender will be asked to leave the server and could be kicked or subsequently banned.

Players are allowed to clear out defenders as this is preventing their advance however prolonged defending that is obviously spawncamping will not be tolerated.

[Tutonic]

I have to agree with pretty much everything Ghost has said above.

 - Defenders should not be expected to suddenly turn tail and run to the next MCOM when the one they were defending is destroyed. It's up to the attacking side to clear out the defenders and move on.

- Defenders should never be allowed to re-enter an attacking team's spawn area, under any circumstances.

- We should get together and draw up some maps showing what we consider to be 'out-of-bounds' for defenders.

- Defenders should be allowed to steal vehicles (so long as they are not re-entering a lost base), but they MUST WITHDRAW with the stolen vehicles back to their own base. Nobody likes spawning next to a hostile tank.

[big-paddy]

All sounds good. I would suggest that we make it very simple one liners to publish.

I would just like to confirm can attackers do what they like on Rush?

[GhostMjr]

- We should get together and draw up some maps showing what we consider to be 'out-of-bounds' for defenders.

Point taken and maps will be brought along to the lan for each admin present to mark up and discuss.