Beth'tilac - Defeated 05/07/11

[TeaLeaf]

One of the dps issues was not having the additional taunts sorted at the bottom.  On the first kill, the first 3 were taunted.  On this kill there was some ongoing confusion about who needed to taunt what and that's my partly fault as RL for not explaining what was needed.  The result was we did not get our dps up there until the 3rd spinner died, which is slower than the 3rd one being taunted, but avoids a forgotten weapon buff not being over-written.  

Spinners come down in pairs and this is what you need to know.
1.  There are more than 4 per phase, it's about 8, so dps cannot forget about them.  I spent most of the fight trying to keep dots up on all of them.
2.  They arrive in pairs.
3.  First pair is taunted by the upstairs tank/healer combo and they take the threads up to the web.
3.  Second pair needs 1 taunted for the melee dps to go upstairs.

Upstairs tank handles first 2 taunts for him and his healer.
Downstairs tank handles a taunt from the second pair to give the dps a third thread to use.
We don't care about taunting the other spinners, we just dps them and heal through their single target spells.

As far as I can work out from the logs, this is how we spent our time last night on Beth'tilac:

Try 1:  Upstairs tank & healer failed to get down before Smoldering Devastation hit - WIPE
Try 2:  Melee dps 'taunted' boss - WIPE
Try 3:  Melee dps 'taunted' boss - WIPE
Try 4:  Melee dps 'taunted' boss - WIPE
Try 5:  Upstairs healer got aggro (no tank/tank fall) - WIPE
Try 6:  Upstairs healer got aggro (no tank/tank fall) - WIPE
Try 7:  Upstairs healer got aggro (no tank/tank fall) - WIPE
Try 8:  Lost MT, heavy damage
Try 9:  Melee dps failed to get down before Smoldering Devastation hit - WIPE
Try 10 Healer failed to get down before Smoldering Devastation hit - WIPE
Try 11 *not sure what happened here*
Try 12 - KILL

In Future
You can see that we wasted a lot of tries and time on stuff that we can and should easily avoid.  That has to be our focus in the future.  We only raid 3 times a week for 3 hours each time, so we need to learn to be more effective when we do raid if we want decent progress.

Tank Damage
Slightly confused by Twisted taking less damage than Hal on this fight from Beth when tnaking up on the web, as DK tanks are generally accepted as having lower EHP than palas in Cata.  Anyone got any ideas on why this might be?  Other than making sure we have some kind of incoming damage buff up at all times eg ancestral/insp.

[Twyst]

Tank Damage
Slightly confused by Twisted taking less damage than Hal on this fight from Beth when tnaking up on the web, as DK tanks are generally accepted as having lower EHP than palas in Cata.  Anyone got any ideas on why this might be?  Other than making sure we have some kind of incoming damage buff up at all times eg ancestral/insp.

I tend to pop a +dodge trinket on my way up as I know the healer will be not available for a few seconds.

[TeaLeaf]

Nah, this seemed pretty consistent.  Hal was typically getting humped for 50ks, you were 30ks.  That sort of difference, we were discussing it on TS in officer channel as Whitey was looking at the live logs during the run and he picked it up.

[Ranualf]

maybe his blood shield is soaking up that much, or that i`m slapping a shield on him b4 he goes up- althought it wouldnt explain the constant 20k less than hal... dunno- maybe some dk :norty:"magic":norty:

[JonnyAppleSeed]

One thing to note .... As the tank /healer combo head up top of the web .... Tank should pick the close thread and the healer far. If it's the other way around the boss will sometimes take a swipe at the healer before the tank can get in range. It lets you both go up at "almost" the same time safely

[Treach]

Right, my views on going up the web:

We've found the simplest way to tank the boss is all gathered infront of him for aoe healing and having him facing away from the hole in the middle. 1st time move clockwise for each fire patch, 2nd time anti, 3rd time clockwise again as the 1st lot despawn during the second.

When I drop down I have 15 seconds or so to rush dps the nearest thing before I'm hunting spiders to take me up again so don't expect any sort of damage help from us 3.

What are people's view on the bottom?

[vladic]

Found an alternate stategy for this boss, thats for dealing with over adds, basicly P1 first go a (best DPS u got) tank and healer go up, DPS blows everything the have i mean rip the crap outta beth, then jump down, when they next go up only the tank and healer go and DPS stays downstairs to DPS adds down (guilds in 353 gear have used this and downed boss from 90% health) also marking the 3 spawn area's of the spiders with floating icons would probably help

[vladic]

also this may help RGW with the DPS sorting as our DPS planning was all over place for first 6 attempts

Ranged DPS | Spiderlings -> Spinners -> Drone
Ranged DPS | Spiderlings -> Spinners -> Drone
Melee DPS | Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings
Ranged DPS| Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings
Ranged DPS| Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings

obviously we dont have 4 ranged we have 3 so would need changing to suit combined with the stategy above i think this would work well

[Arcticfire]

Now, we are having alot of trouble with this fight, either its the DPS not getting the adds down quick enough or its our healer(s), downstairs, getting out of mana.

Checking the logs, we are down a full 10K dps(e) compared to RGT, now I know RGT has better gear but I full 10K is certainly to much, also because the dps has a 7-8K difference.
I think(since I was upstairs) this is due to to much movement. So we need to be discussing this problem and I would like to input from people that are downstairs.

Now the healing problem, I asked whitey to go up for the first few tries, he couldnt manage, so I went up(since Moonslash is raidbuild). However then there wasnt enough healing downstairs since Moonslash got oom pretty quick.
So we need to get a solution for this aswell, maybe swapping healers like, first time "insert name" goes up, second time.... ect ect.

because I certainly think we shouldnt be in T11 instances anymore, and should, gearwise, be in Firelands.

[Legolei]

also this may help RGW with the DPS sorting as our DPS planning was all over place for first 6 attempts

Ranged DPS | Spiderlings -> Spinners -> Drone
Ranged DPS | Spiderlings -> Spinners -> Drone
Melee DPS | Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings
Ranged DPS| Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings
Ranged DPS| Spinners -> Drone -> Spiderlings

obviously we dont have 4 ranged we have 3 so would need changing to suit combined with the stategy above i think this would work well

I think you sum up one of our biggest problems in getting advancements on a fight: we switch too much in tactics. Every time we 'fail', we change tactics.
Drone did not go fast enough? More dps on drone. What do you mean, spinners were up too long? Ok, first spinners, then drone. Next try, different tactics.

Whenever you get a new task, it takes a while to feel completely comfortable with it (at least, it takes a few tries for me).
 E.g. Hermioneg switching to the Spiderlings, without anyone realizing that the first batch of Spiderlings follows normal aggro rules instead of go straight for a drone, which lead to several deaths by Hermioneg . Me doing more dps on a drone, which resulted in the Spiderlings coming closer to the drone, which lead to more movement of the drone, which leads to less melee damage on the drone.

When we use a different tactic, everyone need to adjust. New task, new moments of low/high dps, new moments of high/low damage taking. The fight becomes less predictable, something goes wrong, ***PANIC!!! CHANGE TACTICS!!!!***

Part of this comes from lacking a strong tactical raid leader, one who in a split second can analyze what's going wrong and what's going ok (like TL). Several people try to step in, and we get our well known RGW chaos.

Somehow we will have to appoint a tactical raid leader in our group, one that prepares the fights better than the rest (for all classes), that defines the tactics, and makes sure we stick to it. It also means that the rest of the group will have to accept that person as the tactical raid leader, listen to him/her and execute the tactics defined.

[hubbah]

i thought that was dreaman?

[Arcticfire]

We dont really change tactics alot, we tweek them.

[vladic]

we tweek on occasion but even i gotta admit we change the rotations around that much and never put people immediatly on there strengths (Hermi and Lego are AOE masters yet Hermi for first 4 attempts was DPSing i dont know what) that we do change tactics quite often or never consider tactics that, we need to have a dedicated pre meditated strategy (like that small one i posted above) and no offence but we need to put it on an individual post or a macro so that RGW can actually read it or find it amongs all these comments, as lets face it, we dont raid the same as RGT, we arnt as geared and we havnt got the same group composition, we need to find existing strategys not just the one RGT used and see which one works best for us.

RGT is RGT and we are RGW, diffrent mind sets and play styles and we need to stick to ours.

and before i get flamed for "its the boss compendium" yes i know its a boss compendium but its also a large and messy boss compendium being commented and changed regularly with 2 different RG trying to use it with the 2nd possibly trying to imitate the first, we need a new folder or thread or something for RGW to post our tactics and such in detail for us to read without it being burried under 500 comments that may follow.

Vladic

[JonnyAppleSeed]

I don't think trying to do the boss in totally different ways is going to help...I agree you need to tweak things for the raid makeup tho it better to look at what we know should work and then find out why it isn't. Use what we already know or you could end up with 90+ wipes on Ryolith like Rgt had. When things seem to go wrong its easy to blame the tactics but stick with it don't re invent the wheel. Look at the logs find what was going wrong and then adjust

[Whitey]

We ran this with two melee last night and did the same thing we tried on Monday night in RGW with the kitty going upstairs and warrior full time on drone when it was up.  The main difference was the amount of dps going out 100k v's the 73k we had on Monday night.