Warmaster Blackhorn - DEFEATED 04/12/11

[Nimsraedian]

Looking at our last attempt we had, we did pretty good on dodging the charge and grouping up on the big purple pools.
The problem here was that the ship got destroyed when we were taking down our last wave of adds.
So either we step up our dps a bit more, or we absorb more of the small purple pools. Or maybe a bit of both I will certainly try to absorb the small pools a bit more when i have enough HP.
Plus i just respecced to combat wich is much more effective when switching targets all the time.
So imo monday we'll get a few more attempts in, and i'm sure he'll be killed halfway raidnight

[JonnyAppleSeed]

I try to take the odd little purple pools when I have a personal cooldown available... barkskin ftw

[Azunai]

I will certainly try to absorb the small pools a bit more when i have enough HP.

I think if you're running with 2 healers, you'll want to avoid this. Rather, it all seems to point to an overall lack of DPS. There's only so much you can solve with workarounds until they become more of a strain, and this is one thing.

That's not to say you shouldn't dodge all those things. Of course you should.. but soaking more pools to prevent the ship from dying is not a solution. It won't make the fight easier since it will very likely reduce your dps output, making the fight take longer, which means more swirls, which again means a dead ship. In a way it's dodging the real issue: a lack of overall DPS. From what I read here, that seems to be the only thing you'll need to fix, and he'll hit the deck (quite literally) for sure!

[TeaLeaf]

The problem is that running to absorb small swirl damage lowers the dps even more.   Absorb a couple if they happen to be near you sure, but more than that is unnecessary if the dps is at sufficient levels.

[TeaLeaf]

Let's try and break this down a bit to see where individual improvement can help.  I've compared RGT's last kill (5min42 on Tuesday) with RGW's longest try (3min26 on Wednesday).  I've selected the first 3min26 of the RGT fight so that the graphs are comparable and I think this summarises the dps problem.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1152[/ATTACH]
(The green lines are when an add died)

Focus is the issue.   Look at the amount of downtime by DPS people!   I have extracted tanks, so we're just looking at the melee & ranged dps here, but you can see the focus in the RGT graph and the lack of focus in the RGW graph.  You clearly have the burst DPS, you peak almost as high as RGT, but then people are way too slow to pick up the new targets and get back to DPSing.  The log page I used for this is here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d03jefha5i2rj86f/sum/damageDone/?s=11311&e=11517

You can go to the web page I used and click on the RDPS and yourself to get an individual graph of your personal dps versus the raid dps.  Where there is a big discrepancy or periods where you are doing nothing then this is seriously bad and you need to figure out what you should be DPSing and how to target it more quickly!

But RGT have so much better gear than RGW
Fair point, so I also compared how quickly the two waves of adds were killed to see what RGW are capable of when they are focused.  Looking at the first wave of adds (2 Drakes, 1 Dreadblade and 1 Slayer) this is what I found:

Wave 1:
RGW Kill Time from Start|Mob|RGT Kill Time from Start
+26 sec|Slayer|
|Dreadblade|+37 sec
+52 sec|Drake 1|
|Slayer|+53 sec
+61 sec|Sapper|
|Sapper|+63 sec
|Drake 1|+63 sec
+67 sec|Dreadblade|
|Drake 2|+73 sec
+79 sec|Drake 2|
This table tells us some important things:

Firstly that RGW is only 6 seconds slower on a wave than RGT, so it is not gear holding you back.

Secondly, that RGT use a different kill order and tend to do more AOE splash damage on the adds, whereas RGW clearly focus down one add the the next.  Splash damage or multi-dotting is usually highly beneficial to raid dps so add placement by tanks to maximise melee splash dps  is important, as is ranged trying to multi-dot where it is beneficial to your total dps.

So now we know RGW has the DPS, so let's see how quickly the second wave was finished:

Wave 2:
RGW Kill Time from Start|Mob|RGT Kill Time from Start
+169 secs (predicted +143)|Wave 2|+131 sec
Somewhere along the way RGW have lost an additional 26 seconds.  If you look at the graph you can see why, it is lack of focus and activity.  

Wave 3:
RGW Kill Time from Start|Mob|RGT Kill Time from Start
Log ends @ +195 secs with 1 of 4 mobs dead|Wave 3|+198 sec
By this time the lack of focus means a wipe just into the 3rd wave of adds whereas by maintaining focus and activity levels RGT had finished the third wave at the same time.   RGW should finish the 3rd wave at about +216 sec.

I hope this helps explain why RGW is struggling here.  Its' not raw dps potential, it's lack of activity.   Target quickly, keep DOTs up, maximise splash damage, stay focused, keep active!  

79 seconds for the first wave says you can do this fight easily.

[hermioneg]

I thank you for the analysis of TL ..

 I did the same thing .. the point is that the RGW does not have the dps of RGT (or its too slow/no dotted).
 we need more time to knock down the 3 waves, and the ship explodes in 70% of cases

 I tried an alternative tactic to compensate.

 I would like your own opinion .....

 I decided to split the raid into 2 groups, melee and tanks near the bow,  Ranged to stern.

 ranged:
 slay a dragon at a time (coordinated via TS and 1 kill every time they are pulled with harpoons), but most important thing, at least 3 must stack on the balls drawn by dragons. to prevent the ship is destroyed.

 Melee & TANKS:
 do what they usually do, and at least 2 stacks on purple balls.

 all stack on the big Twilight bomb

  all kill sappers (best way is to make a macro on a button and use associated ultraxion like ability)

 / target sapper
 / cast (to slow / grip spell)

[Sithvid]

Fingers x for Monday

[TeaLeaf]

.. the point is that the RGW does not have the dps of RGT (or its too slow/no dotted).
 we need more time to knock down the 3 waves, and the ship explodes in 70% of cases

I think you missed the point of the post Hermi.  The data demonstrates that RGW comfortably have the dps to kill Blackhorn (RGT kill first wave in 73 seconds, RGW in 79 seconds - these are close enough and easily enough dps).  

What the timing showed was that after the first wave of adds, whereas RGT maintained focus on the adds and maintained their dps levels, RGW got confused about what to hit and therefore failed to perform at the level they can.  

The graphs I posted demonstrate this quite clearly - RGT dps all do damage at the same time, RGW have people's dps going up and down at the same time for no apparent reason.   Take a look at your own dps on that fight as an example, there's lots of downtime where you were not actively casting and doing the damage that you and I both know you can do.  

The difference between RGT & RGW is that RGT maintained the '73 second dps' on the 2nd & 3rd wave of adds.   RGW did well on the first set of adds but then lost focus on the 2nd & 3rd set of adds.  

So the dps *is* there in RGW, but people need to have targeted something and be casting on it all the time, not with big gaps.

Go back and look at the graphs I posted.  The RGT part shows:
-when adds spawn there is a massive surge in dps and *everyone* is active and generally doing over 20k dps.

The RGW part of the picture shows:
-every single person in RGW can do over 20k dps
-when the adds come RGW get confused about what to do, hence some people doing 40k dps at the same time as someone else is doing 5k dps.   That's not gear, that's not having something targeted and pressing the cast button often enough.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1153[/ATTACH]

First Wave of Adds
In the first wave of adds in the RGW log we had:
-everyone doing over 20k dps
-max dps 60k from 2 people

In the first wave of adds in the RGT log we had:
-everyone doing over 20k dps
-max dps 60k from 1 person

Second Wave of Adds
In the second wave of adds in the RGW log we had:
-3-4 people below 10k dps for extended periods
-max dps 50k from 1 person

In the second wave of adds in the RGT log we had:
-everyone doing over 20k dps
-max dps 60k from 1 person

So for the 2nd wave RGT simply repeated what they did in the first wave.   What happened to RGW's 1st wave performance?   Why are people below 10k dps when the adds are out?    That's the bit to fix and it will then give you the kill.

Re your strategy suggestion
My concern would be that with trying to get 3 dps into each small swirl will trigger a whole lot of movement, which in turn stops you doing dps, which in turn means the raid takes more damage and more time to kill things, which in turn means the ship takes more damage from for example the 2nd drake whilst you are killing the first.  The fastest solution in this fight is to kill the adds, period.   RGW did this in 73 seconds and just need to repeat the exact same level of focused dps on the 2nd wave, then the 3rd wave to get the kill.  Whether you split dps, multi-dot, AOE or single target is not the major factor.  The major factor is people need to be actively dpsing stuff *all* the time which the logs show people in RGW are not doing.

[TeaLeaf]

This is the problem for RGW, period.  My 2 posts I think sum it up in a nut shell.   There's no way that whilst someone is doing 50k dps that 4 others should be under 20k dps and as low as 4k dps.  That's pure 'not having a target  and not pushing the button'.

Solve the target & button pushing issue and the kill is yours.  I can't think of any way to put it more simply for RGW to understand.

[hermioneg]

i disagree TL....

I am convinced that all try to do their best ..
 the problem of low dps (at least in my case) is due to the movements, the first wave is almost stationary, and for this we see high dps.
 after the first big twilight all move long to avoid charges, reach the dragons, reach the sappers (or turn to target).

Unfortunately we have little DOT, so the time available for dps on dragons is really limited (i respecc from frost to fire but my dps will be lower, but I ll get dot)

The other thing I have read is that the Drakes are a higher priority for ranged dps as they are only in range for a limited duration, so it might be that ranged need to prio the Drake over a Sapper.

im agree.... (with 2 mages we can help by putting RoF x2 at the door)
and requires coordination of the target on the dragon on TS

[TeaLeaf]

I'm not saying people are not trying, but you cannot argue that everyone is reaching their maximum potential when some are doing 50k dps at the same point others are doing just 4k dps.  It's illogical to suggest otherwise.

Re Fire spec
Fire spec will not reduce your dps, fire spec is far higher dps than Frost spec, even Blizz say that Frost is deliberately lower dps - that's why you'll not find a single frost mage in a high end raid, it's simply not competitive.    Fire spec also allows you to cast whilst moving and has dots, so your dps should be way higher than frost spec which is currently intended as a PVP/cc spec only.  I did 21-22k dps on my mage alt with RGW on this exact same  fight the other week in fire spec and you have better gear than me, so your dps in fire spec should be even better.   The try I looked at you did 13k dps as arcane.

Re Movement
Yes the first group is stationary, BUT:  RGW do roughly (within 6 seconds) the same level of dps as RGT for the first wave.   RGT are not holding back, so why is RGW dps suddenly so much worse than RGW's for the 2nd wave?   You can target and have in range both a ranged target and both melee targets from most places on the deck, I know this as I do it every week on my shadow priest and did the same on my mage when in with RGW.   So the only conclusion I can reach is that some ranged are not casting enough.   It's only by not casting that your dps can drop as low as 4k in the logs.  You might be trying to move too much, but at the same time as someone doing 4k dps another raider was doing 50k dps.  It's the spread of dps numbers that create the overall lack of dps.   Looking at RGT's log and the dps is much smoother, all dps goes up when targets are there, then all dps drops as targets die.  Where is the same smoothness in the RGW log?

RGT ran with 2 DOT classes (aff lock & shadow priest), but you have DOTs from your boom and with fire spec you'll add even more dots.  You've also got a ton of AOE in your melee classes within RGW.  But y0ou can kill this boss without any DOT classes, so DOTs are not the issue.

I'm not trying to put people down here, I'm just trying to analyse where the performance gains are available to your raid group.  The fact that RGT dps lines go up and down at the same time and generally follow each other, whilst RGW's have people going in opposite directions at the same time means that you have some people not reaching their maximum potential - otherwise all the lines would go in the same direction.   Check the picture again.

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[hermioneg]

you're right TL.
 and thank you for your analysis.

 I noticed that in the RGT kill in this order: dreadblade-> Slayers-> 2 drake, I think is derived from the fact that the melee damage are crazy
 RGW in the order becomes: Slayer->-drake> dreadblade-> drake. :g:
 we did the first wave at the same RGT time. after this dps goes down , RGT takes 2.10min (from start) to kill 2nd waves and RGW takes 2.50 (with 1 dps died and rebirth) I do not remember if we lost a sapper, but the ship exploded,from the log you see that we are all dead after the twilight onslaught.
I wanted to ask ..what percentage remains the vessel in RGT?
for 40 seconds more on the second wave is possible that the ship will explode at the beginning of the third?
in RGT you kill the 2 dragons at once or the second is harpooned 2 times ?

excuse the questions, but I would like to understand where we wrong (as well as in DPS :sad:)

[Azunai]

We usually end Phase 1 with about 30ish % left on the ship, maybe a bit less. Sometimes a sapper spawns after P2 has already started. You *have* to kill that one if your ship is on low health or you're still screwed. I believe the thought was originally that it doesn't do dmg anymore, but it does, I specifically checked last time. It might be though that the ship won't die, even if it reaches 0% when in P2. But that's a bit beside the point here :-)

In RGT we don't have a kill order. The fight is prio-based, really. We kill the melee adds (I just pick one and hit it, don't really care if its a Slayer or Dreadblade). If a drake pops up, the designated ranged take it down and resume melee adds afterwards. If a sapper pops up, it is DPS prio. I would argue here that our melee can take care of one just fine as long as it gets stunned and slowed, but generally, you don't want it to hit the ship so you kill it fast.

As far as I'm aware, we kill the drakes in 1 go every time.

From what I can read so far, you are doing the tactics just fine, perhaps a bit too much of it. I have to side with TL here and say that the only thing you have to improve in order to nail this (and every future fight) is to sort out the low DPS.
If in the same situation player X is doing 25k DPS and player Y 15k DPS with a gear difference that's marginal at best, it means that player Y is physically not pressing their buttons fast enough and/or doesn't know what rotation to use on their spells.

It has *nothing* to do with your tactics at this point, because with the right DPS, what you guys are doing will simply work. No ammount of tactical workarounds are going to make up for your lack of DPS in this fight. Not tanking the adds in 1 spot, not focussing everything you have on drakes or whatever else you may come up with, IF your DPS remains at the level it is now. You are fighting against time in the form of the ship's health. You can only stretch that so far, because the ship is always taking damage, even if you soak every swirl both small and big. The only way to prevent the ship from exploding is to kill the dragons in time.

Unfortunately, improving DPS is something that people have to do individually, and it's something that is hard to teach. You can tell someone what gems/glyphs/talents/gear to use, but after that, it is up to them to execute the right rotations fast enough. The only way you can really influence that (other than pointing out flaws via logs) is to sit next to them and watch them physically press their keys on the keyboard.


Oh, and there's no need to excuse for the questions. This kind of talk is always good and it would help if everyone in a raidgroup would commit to it, because the graph shows the majority of people are lacking. So definetly kudo's for asking questions :-)

[Sithvid]

Rgw do stumble on bosses and ultraxion was the same. For my part I am slow to adjust  dunno why, but I love the challenge and together we will do it. Rgt is a blessing without the back up and support we would have folded, there is also to some degree a curse part from rgt, like it or not they are up there high in realm rankings raid 3 nights and success breeds success I would love to emulate that success with rgw and one day maybe we will ....

[Switchback]

Finally got this MF down! GJ RGW!

Much better dps,but still room for improvement after looking at logs.

Better movement,clearer calls,better dps....a kill....take note from it