HEROIC Spine of Deathwing - DEFEATED 08/05/12

[JonnyAppleSeed]

We return to the old tried and true method where we tank the bloods in the middle and the Amalgamation near the plate

One of the best parts on the "new" method was taunting the add into a pool of bloods next to the plate. Having sat out watching Hal's live stream on the old method the new taunt and pop realy looks like a win when we get it right

The Earth buff although not perfect seems to be mostly heading to tanks I think tighter positioning will help.

Puja ya bang on with Searing Plasma. You cant aford to be getting any damage or agro when you have this. Maybe for dps worth knocking up a weak aura so you cant miss that you are in trouble

Blood killing .... looking at logs we have people killing bloods during a tendon phase probs splash damage / cleave .. Can we not put any dps onto bloods at this point. Each time one pops we get a raid wide 3-5k hit and its a sensitive time for healing as we are still trying to get poeple up from the nova pulse and dps the corruption

[Azunai]

We are well able to do single target DPS only, and we'll easily make the DPS curve on adds in P1. Afterwards there's only ever 1 target so no need to cleave/AoE at all.

I'm fine with doing the new tactic, it seemed to work well enough near the end of the raid (we nearly reached P3 there). I was just suggesting based on Puja's statement that it was harder (on healers, I figured). But if that's not then hey.. :-)

To be honest the only real negative difference I've noticed is that we're missing the tank's dps on the tendon, which tbh I think we should be able to cover for.

[Niel]

I'm not saying the new position makes it harder........but the positioning being a bit looser in the attempts so far does not make the best use of the Cleansing Flames proc on the DW healer MH that all of our healers are using. We averaged 6-8% of each healers output being from Cleansing Flames on Sunday.........with the previous tactics/positioning we we getting 10-15% of output. Cleansing Flames is basically free healing from the weapon proc and our positioning needs to make this as effetive as possible. I am pretty sure the cone of cleansing flames is a 140 degree frontal cone so we need to position the healers and as many people as possible in front of as many of the 3 frontal cones as possible..........its not 100% necessary but makes the removal of searing plasma easier and as it is free healing this means it costs less mana over time..........and mana is the big decider as far as the healing goes............we can up output during heavy loads but output comes at the cost of durability - and this is a long fight so we have to take advantage of everything. Even running smoothly we have 3 healers averaging 20K+ HPS for the whole fight with peaks of 26K HPS.........maintaining this is not a walk in the park.

Searing Plasma/HP/aggro awareness - mentioned before but i will reiterate it...............if someone has searing plasma and aggros mobs that then stick to them the only way to save their backside is to heal like hell to get the plasma off them..........high cost heals are a huge drain on mana and due to the levels of output required already it is a big negative to do this. I have used 30-40% of my total mana saving one person on occasions like this.........we simply can't afford to do it. If a mob gets solid aggro on someone it is because that someone has annoyed it enough for it to love them lots........if that person has searing plasma and does things that might lead to any mob taking such a liking to them that it needs a tank to taunt it off them then i think it reckless to get into that situation in the first place. As a healer i attract lots of attention from the blobs but i try to position myself that the aoe tank abilities remove it off me in short order. For me the searing plasma debuff should trigger something in people that says "hey, maybe i had better single target solidly tanked mobs until this is gone".............the fact is that right now people are usually gettign away with it because either a tank saves them from the beating or the healers save them by getting the debuff off.......i'd prefer the sitation to be triggered as little as possible as the best option. I'm not saying everything is awful.........but it is an improvement that would help as it does happen every attempt.

Cheers

Niel

[microid]

i have addon called tidy plates its changes the color of mops health bar if i got aggro. so i should notice it right away. but the lag might show it too late and blob humps me a few time before whitee tell him something about his mother and it will go for a revenge =)

from last night tries i dont remember having agro from anything. the only time that can happend is when a new blob spawns it has to gain agro on someone and theres really nothing a dps can do about it on that time.

what i will try today is not to use searing totem. thats usual the reason for agro on shamans. gonna lose some dps on algamations but if this fix agro problem then so be it.

for the new tactics i like it. the position of the tanks is better. hal dont have to go around half of the DW back to bick up blood or try to avoid them when going in position whit the new one. whytee has hes back to the wall so all blobs will attack him from side. old tactics they every direction. avoidance parry/dodge dont work on attacks which comes from back.

[Siffredi]

Another thing with Puja comment for the positioning is my frontal cone heal - It is very dependant on positioning - Where before i would solid get it to hit 6 persons it now hits between 4-5 so thats healing down the drain along with the weapon proc. It is nothing we cannot cope with, but if people stack up better all the healers will do better healing.

Also the thing about aggro on searing plasma is a pain - If my HoP is on cd and someone is getting stomped by blobs i only have the choice to spam heal divine light/flash light depending on how low that person is or waste a LoH on that person that could have been used later in the fight where the real fun begins. I am also fine with the new tactic and getting into the later plates is going to be crucial, but if people could improve the stacking and being in a spot where the blobs are easy for the tank to pickup - Then this is going to be a succes.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

i have addon called tidy plates its changes the color of mops health bar if i got aggro

I have the same but the problem being if its shows I have agro its already too late. The trigger should be I have the plazma debuff dont aoe/get agro

[microid]

i though we already agreed that no aoe in this figth? so no one should not be doing it

[Azunai]

Well there's a good chance you'll grab some while cleaning up Bloods in the later part of the fight. That's where you need to be careful with AoE if you have the debuff, mainly. For the 1st part, yes, don't AoE on the Amalgamations.

[TeaLeaf]

Following up on the one pull last night, it was clear we're into the last critical transition and just need to handle it to see the phat loot at the other end of the rainbow.  The key to my mind is how we use spiritlink to remove excess plasma debuffs when we get into a phase where the raid will be taking high damage (like getting rid of bloods or a plate transition).   We have 2 spirit links and we had 10 mins of fight last night.  The average kill is about 11 min30, so we're real close to finishing this fight off.

In terms of positioning, let's make sure we get the spiritlink 10yds from the plate - it is OUR responsibility to group tightly after each roll (and at all other times) to ensure we are within 10yds of the totem and getting its effect.   Spiritlink is awesome at removing plasma debuffs so we need to maximise their use.

I also think that we will need to ignore trinket CDs not being over and just push right through under heroism once into the 3rd plate phase - as soon as the Amalgamation is at 250-500k we should stack it up to 9 and push into a tendon burn phase during which we'll run heroism which should cover lack of trinkets.   The trinks will then be back up for the 2nd half of the 3rd tendon burn.  If we don't do this then we're adding another 3 minutes to the fight instead of the 90 seconds that it might cover.   I guess we'll need to see how that phase goes.

Sunday should be a kill so let's get a good turnout!

[TeaLeaf]

Went through all of the Fraps from our Sunday attempts and some common themes stood out.  I timelined the tries where we did not pooch something too soon and looked at the timing differences between tries and what worked, what can be done better and where we were effective.  The spreadsheet results are here if you want to see the numbers. Note: In the spreadsheet, Taunt also covers Hal running in with the Amalgamation

My viewing notes were these:

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Raid is positioned up at plate by blood tank, melee on Amalgamation, ALL in rain
Must run Amalgamation into Bloods quicker
Must burn corruption & group to roll quicker
Must get quicker barrier post roll to coincide with other 2 CDs
Too early on the Spirtlink wastes it and Plasmas do not get removed
Must Skull new Amalgamation quicker
Use Hideous Amalgamation macro to burn quicker
Hal watch to not get Tendrils whilst tanking Amalgamation
Don't kill Corruption before Blast starts
Amalgamation aim is 250k (higher means too slow)
Under CDs, pump healing into NON-PLASMA targets
Taunt to Tendon Burn generally = 15 secs
On first phase, blood tank keep taunt available when near the Amalagamation taunt
Nuclear Blast is 5 seconds
Possible to blow CDs before we roll to minimize Plasmas?
Assign melee to front left Corruptiom, Ranged to 'rear'
Position of Barrier
Burn strategy for bloods during P3 - ensure we get 9
From these notes, the timeline and viewing of the Sunday Fraps I see these as the key factors:

Amalgamation DPS
This is the single biggest thing we can change to make this fight easier.  On the first plate either bloods (1st burn) or Trinket CD (second burn) are the limiting factor.   From the 2nd Plate onwards (i.e. from 3rd tendon burn onwards) the Amalgamation HP is the limiting factor.   Post a tendon burn we HAVE to get onto DPSing the Amalgamation immediately and hard.  The sooner we get it down to 250k the fewer bloods we have to deal with and the sooner we can get into another burn phase.   We need to push as hard as we can to keep closer to the 90 second trinket CD timing & Hal needs to remember to skull the add ASAP to assist.
USE a target macro!!

Burn 1-1: Limited by blood numbers
Burn 1-2: Limited by trinket CD
Burn 2-1: Limited by Amalgamation DPS (currently 10-20 seconds behind)
Burn 2-2: Limited by Amalgamation DPS (currently 15 seconds behind)
Burn 3-1: Reached once, 24 seconds behind
Burn 3-2: (not yet reached)

(e.g. Burn 1-2 means Plate 1, 2nd burn)

Positoning
Raid is positioned up at plate by blood tank, melee on Amalgamation, but ALL in healing rain, not spread out all over the shop.

The Taunt/Run-In
From the point at which we run the add in to the start of a tendon burn is about 12 seconds, so the aim is to move the Amalgamation to the bloods no later than 12 sec left on trinket CD.   Clearly this is limited by the Amalgamation HP, but from 2nd plate onwards do not wait for a call as there will automatically be enough bloods ready to stack.  Waiting for a TS call will waste precious seconds.

Post-Tendon Burn
We have to ensure that the moment the Tendon Burn is over that DPS switch immediately to either the new Amalgamation (first half of a tendon burn) or the new Corruptions (after a tendon has been killed).  

The Roll
After a tendon kill we leave front right corruption and:
-Melee should always kill front left
-Ranged should kill the 'other rear' tendon
-ALL have to be closer to mid-left to initiate the ROLL sooner (currently there's a big delay)
We roll ASAP.

Searing Plasmas
Reviewing the Fraps I saw big differences in the effectiveness of how we used out spiritlink, healing hymn & power word barrier.  Our problem seems to be that by the time we get to a ROLL we have 3-6 plasmas up already, are sometimes struggling to keep people alive, hence the wish to use spiritlink pre-roll.  

However, on most tries where we had 4 or fewer Plasma debuffs up at the roll the effectiveness of Spiritlink was greatly reduced.  On tries where we had more than 4 Searing Plasma debuffs up Spiritlink then become seriously effective.  I therefore think we need to make the spiritlink call an optional one  for the shaman.   Perhaps using a rule something like: 5 or more is a pre-roll spiritlink, or, 4 with low health is a pre-roll spirit link, 3 or less is a post-roll spirit link.  (there was one try with 4 plasmas where we were a lot lower HP than usual and on that particular try spiritlink worked really well).

We then need to get way better at coordinating the barrier & hymn.  We had a couple where palcement of the barrier was an issue or the timing of the combo was poor.  We need to hit these together if we use them at this point.  Aim for barrier in mid just ahead of the roll-pit.  It is the raid's responsibility to get there and stay there ASAP after a roll to benefit from the healing CDs - it's no good if you run out of range!

REMINDER - when we're healing under spiritlink, resist the urge to heal low-HP debuffed targets, only heal those WITHOUT Searing Plasma or you totally waste your mana.

Possible Strategy Change for Searing
One thing I am still thinking about, is the option post tendon kill to: kill corruptions, group up nicely & blow all healing CDs to get rid of plasmas, and only then do the roll.  It might allow more effective searing plasma mitigation.

Possible Strategy Change for Burn 1-2:
We're regularly getting this first tendon down to circa 40% on Burn 1-1, so we might be able to do Burn 1-2 without the trinkets.  This would mean we could trigger the Burn 2-1 about 25 seconds earlier and with far fewer bloods, which by the time we get into P3 will really help us.

Thoughts?

[Azunai]

Positoning
Raid is positioned up at plate by blood tank, melee on Amalgamation, but ALL in healing rain, not spread out all over the shop.

Small request to Hal in this regard: If you can, pull the Amalgamation a bit more to the center of the platform. I have to be behind the Amalg to maximize DPS and I noticed you kept it on the right side a couple of times (in P2+, after the roll). This leaves me out of the healing rain.

Possible Strategy Change for Burn 1-2:
We're regularly getting this first tendon down to circa 40% on Burn 1-1, so we might be able to do Burn 1-2 without the trinkets.  This would mean we could trigger the Burn 2-1 about 25 seconds earlier and with far fewer bloods, which by the time we get into P3 will really help us.

Not sure if it'll make a huge impact as the spawn rate is of course lower, but yes, every bit probably helps so I say go for it.

[TeaLeaf]

Not sure if it'll make a huge impact as the spawn rate is of course lower, but yes, every bit probably helps so I say go for it.

We have surplus bloods left over fom Burn 1-1, so there should be little or no blood limitation to adopting his change, thus the deciding factor is the dps on the tendon - if we can kill it without the trinket on Burn 1-2 then we should be ahead of the curve with the add spawn rate for later in the fight.

[Slush]

Post a tendon burn we HAVE to get onto DPSing the Amalgamation immediately and hard. The sooner we get it down to 250k the fewer bloods we have to deal with and the sooner we can get into another burn phase. We need to push as hard as we can to keep closer to the 90 second trinket CD timing & Hal needs to remember to skull the add ASAP to assist.
USE a target macro!!

Of all the issues mentioned in your post, this stands out to be the most important one in my eyes.
After the SUPERIMPORTANT Tendon-burn, its easy to sit back and "wait" for next Tendon-burn-phase.
Yeh, this could make things easier.

Possible Strategy Change for Burn 1-2:
We're regularly getting this first tendon down to circa 40% on Burn 1-1, so we might be able to do Burn 1-2 without the trinkets. This would mean we could trigger the Burn 2-1 about 25 seconds earlier and with far fewer bloods, which by the time we get into P3 will really help us.

Agreed. With the optimal/close-to optimal raid setup, its quite doable.

However, on most tries where we had 4 or fewer Plasma debuffs up at the roll the effectiveness of Spiritlink was greatly reduced. On tries where we had more than 4 Searing Plasma debuffs up Spiritlink then become seriously effective. I therefore think we need to make the spiritlink call an optional one for the shaman. Perhaps using a rule something like: 5 or more is a pre-roll spiritlink, or, 4 with low health is a pre-roll spirit link, 3 or less is a post-roll spirit link. (there was one try with 4 plasmas where we were a lot lower HP than usual and on that particular try spiritlink worked really well).

Well, bear in mind that the Searings just keeps popping up. All the time.
-Pre-roll; We always manage to get everyone back up.
-Post-roll; People are lower on HP due to "hole-debuff = damage" and there will be new Searing Plasmas applied to the raid as soon as roll is finished. In majority of the fights, at this time, healers are often (not always) struggling... And having Spirit Link on CD when this happens is not optimal.

[TeaLeaf]

Well, bear in mind that the Searings just keeps popping up. All the time.
-Pre-roll; We always manage to get everyone back up.
-Post-roll; People are lower on HP due to "hole-debuff = damage" and there will be new Searing Plasmas applied to the raid as soon as roll is finished. In majority of the fights, at this time, healers are often (not always) struggling... And having Spirit Link on CD when this happens is not optimal.

Post corruption kill you get more Plasma every time so I'm afraid with all the bloods and all the amalgamations we're not getting all the people back up to full HP pre-roll Slush.  That's the whole reason why Puja was having to use Spiritlink before the roll.

When I watched the fraps from Sunday the effectiveness of pre-roll spiritlink depended on how many plasmas we had out at the time.

We can heal up the minor tendril/pit damage far easier if we don't have plasma out on the raid.  The problem comes when you get 5 or 6 plasma and then jump into the pit.  That's the problem I was trying to resolve.

[Slush]

Sooo... Fiery Grip seems to be doing alot of evil to us now. We had several deaths due to grip both thursday and sunday. Any thoughts?