Advancing From Blue to Red Group

[vladic]

Hey all, Apologies if anyone read my previous post on this subject, I have been informed that it was rather irrespectfully wrote, this wasnt the intention I wished to convey with my writing style which can be rather blunt, here is a less forceful version of that post.

So, now that Red group is given a go ahead and Blue is being set up I read a part of Toby's post on the Blue Signup "This does not mean you will always be in this team, once you have got the skills and gear you can move on to the Red Group", I believe this is another issue that requires addressing.

Due to the teams consisting of Different Kinds of people (skill/play style wise) as well as the extra requirements for Hardmode, I would like to implement a system for possible advancements should anyone wish to move to another group, before I list the system I have some points that I consider non-Negotiable if the group is to stay fun for all but also progressive:

We currently have 11 people in Red group, My personal advice is to allow 1 more healer and 2 more DPS into the group then stop, as too many people and we arrive back at the previous Issue with Red group where we had 18+ people needing to be rotated, it makes it excessivly hard for progression to Occur (and red group is starting on hardmodes and will wish to progress) but also training new people every week for a Hardmode/Nightmare mode fight just isnt possible as the learning curve wouldnt stick due to rotation.

so, onto the advancement systems:

• Internal Application that would be looked over by myself and the Raid assistant with a TS/Email talk to Blue leader on the person to find out if they are ready or if they wont be able to handel the pressure of the runs
• A less formal review service where people can ask simple "can I try for the Red Team" and we would take them one week and try them out, and afterwards say Yay or Nay
• There would be a List of set requirements for either method: 1. Full Colomni Bar ear piece and Implants  2. Has finished Normal Mode Kragga's and EV at least once

I would like to stress that I would like either system above to be for the most part Largly Independent of the council and more an Internal Operations thing to be considered between the two groups, as It is a simple procedure (s) that shouldnt require an overly complicated system, Obviously I myself cant make the decision on my own as that would make me a dictator, so in the supporting judging role I would have 2 Assistant judges, the current Raid Assistant (which you have yet to decide *reminder*) and Twyster (chosen due to vast raid experience and his level headedness).

Please read and Reply, Thanks.

Vladic

[smilodon]

Thanks Vladic, here's my personal response as a  SW player, not as Admin or as a Community Leader.

1. I understand the need to treat the end game seriously. Bioware are certainly not going to make existing and future end game content easy at hard mode. So the concept of trying to make sure group members are properly matched skill wise in order to complete the content is appreciated.

2. Clearly Red Group is more advanced than Blue, but I don't think it's a certainty that Blue will always be behind Red. We'll have to wait and see how that works. Of course if it works out that Blue does feed into Red fair enough. My personal thought is that we shouldn't just assume Blue is lower down the chain than Red but to wait and see. We might have a third group, who knows, and they might be the 'feeder' group to Red and Blue?

3. I'll defer to your comments about numbers. There has to be a minimum and a maximum size for the group. If fourteen works then that's fine.

4. Who makes the final choice on the roster is complicated. On the one hand the leaders of the raids will have the best insight into what they need. On the other hand I think a serious decision like a rejection to a raid group needs to come from the council. How we work this isn't for me to say. Maybe the raid leaders feed the requirements and decisions out through the council, not sure to be honest.

Thanks

[TeaLeaf]

What is the motivation for someone committed to leading or being part of Blue group then?   We have heaps of experience with the problems and interractions between two raid/op groups with SOG RG1/RG2 and DMR RGT/RGW and it there are major issues when you allow a promotion route.

[vladic]

Well as TL has said he has experienced this before and it has caused issues, which to be honest I can see occuring, members getting annoyed when say "bob" gets to move to Red team after only 3 weeks and "terry" has been in blue 3 months but is less skilled OR got turned down, this can cause Infighting.

A solution would be to Isolate the current groups (red is red and Blue is blue) and then allow red to recruit UN-teamed members from the guild should they require more and blue visa versa as well as assigning new joiners for raiding based on experience and equipment etc, for example ill use Hubbah from WoW, when he joined he was put in RGW (although he had Hardmode equipment, this is equivelant to nightmare SWTOR gear) and RGW was in Essentially Beginning raid gear (Tionese to SW people), now obviously he addressed this with management or someone brought it up but he was swiftly moved to RGT as it suited his play style and previous raiding status/style, this would be a fair method as long as reasons were made clear why he was sent to a particular group EG: he already had nightmare mode experience and Normal wouldnt be progression for him.

To smilo - Once red hits nightmare mode, only a hardmode group would be able to be a "feeder" group due to equipment requirements so a third group (assuming red is on nightmare, blue on hard) would need its own reserves etc and only when they have completed normal would they be usable as a feeder for Blue.

On the subject of Rejection, Unless the council had some sort of hidden agenda for "un" rejecting an application, and they were using the experience of the OP's leadership to make the decision, surely there would be no reason for the council's involvement in the process as it would just add a, pardon terminology, bunch of pleasentry/political faf not required, I could understand a Guild application rejection as that would be council territory, but if the OP's leadership (for a set team) have deemed someone Unusable/incapable of OP's for what ever reason (last Guild leader gave bad review etc) I personaly think that OP's leader should notify the individual due to making the decision (obviosly if the individual kicked off then council may be required) as part of leadership is taking responsobility for your decisions, EG: if sneaky asks me why he isnt in red team as he is bound to then I will answer him honestly, His DPS and reaction times are far below average and he takes far more damage then everyone else due to forgetting abilties etc.

Vladic

[TeaLeaf]

for example ill use Hubbah from WoW, when he joined he was put in RGW and RGW was in Essentially Beginning raid gear, now obviously he addressed this with management or someone brought it up but he was swiftly moved to RGT as it suited his play style and previous raiding status/style, this would be a fair method as long as reasons were made clear why he was sent to a particular group EG: he already had nightmare mode experience and Normal wouldnt be progression for him.

If I could take a moment correct this misinformation please:

Hubbah was only ever recruited for RGT.
If you check his application he said in it he could not make Wednesday raids at all (the main RGW raid night).

No idea where you got the impression from that he was recruited for RGW and got promoted to RGT as it is simply not correct.

Having got that out of the way, I'm not sure what you are trying to explain with your example?  You said keep separate groups, but then gave a promotion example?  I'm confused by what you mean here.

Re feeder groups - there are going to be limitations, but we have found from experience that people are far more important than gear.   Gear you can change, but muppets are muppets.  RGT have regularly taken in good people with below par gear and geared them up.  The last time we did it was 4 weeks ago, so I would reitrerate that people are more important than gear.   Twisteddeath, Torgen, Incendia, Miicroid and Grimreaper all came in under-geared, to name but a few.    However if you recruit a muppet you'll end up leading a team of 2 as the other 6 will quit.

Re applications - I think it is massively condescending to assume that nobody other than yourself, or more importantly nobody from Dark Council, can have a valid opinion or input into the recruitment process.   The assumptions you make about the knowledge in that body of people and their support structure are hugely flawed.   So I'd turn the question around: what hidden agenda do you have to feel the need to retain control over a normal guild management function such as recruitment?  Why do you feel that the QA for recruitment should lie outside Dark Council?  I turned the question around so that you could see how you make Dark Council feel when you post it 'your way'.

Think about it.

[vladic]

TL: he did do a run or 2 with RGW before he started with RGT in earnest (bear in mind this was a few years ago so my memory is a tad fuzzy) however him staying with RGW wouldnt have worked as i said before due to style/gear/experience already gained, this was ment more as an example of if say a Partly Rakata geared individual joined the guild for OP's, he would recieve no benefit being in blue (yes he would help guildies but gain nothing himself) hence he would be placed in Red due to expereince/progression etc.

What i ment by the example was to keep red and blue group isolated, dont mix and match or swap people around as we would end up with indivuals getting annoyed (as much as we like to think of guildies as selfless creatures some are in this for personal progression..dont feed the guildies ) and when a new individual has joined, they would be assigned based on certain factors (equipment, Progress etc) that would make guild applications for OP's a fair issue.

I do agree about the people, for example (and im sorry if i sound like im picking on him) Sneaky, whilst he is nearly in full colomni and has done all hardmodes etc, he is less skilled then the other OP's members I have run with so in this regard the Gear is brilliant but the person is medioca at best, And I agree that you can gear individuals up, heck in this game people can get Tier 2 out of 3 for Operations just running Hardmodes so accepting people for any mode as long as they put the time in to aquire the equipment is no issue. Obviously any feeder or Application would be given a trial assuming he met the base requirements (as with any raid application) of having completed the Normal modes and having a certain level of gear.

I am not trying to be condesending, all I was trying to say to smilo's paragraph about the decisions, Yes I wont lie I think the decision should be deffered to the Raid Group council due to as smilo himself pit, them possessing the experience of what is required for the operations groups to continue and succeed person/gear wise, I am not saying to cut them out completely, I was trying to say that unless a sever issue about a rejection is flagged either through complaint or people kicking off, I dont see the reason to over complicate the procedure, I am not going to control recruitment, as my post said it was about OP's recruitment, not guild recruitment that isnt my area, but when it comes to OP's, whilst fairness must be ensured, surely the best idea would be to leave the OP's application processing to the actual OP's Councils as this would let the DC focus on other guild issues.

To summarise:

I was talking about OP's Council moderating Op's Applications, these would assumadly be seperate or included inside a guild application so that even should a member be rejected for an OP's based on valid grounds, this wouldnt affect them getting in the guild.

I was not attempting to insult DA members or insult there possible lack of knowledge, I know they have one council member with OP's experience and One with prior raid experience, I am sure they have knowledge on various SW subjects and a support structure, but it is a simple task that in my head requires the ticking of several boxes off a list of requirements, if ya get so many, you get a shot at doing that level of OP's.

Groups should remain segmented, not comingle, be promoted or demoted etc, any new arrivals who have applied just to do OP's should be rated on various requirements so that there group can be desided (EG: they have half rakata gear and Nightmare experience they go to Red group, They have part Colomni and No hard experience they go to Blue Group).

My only agenda is to make sure that Operations groups continue to have fun but also make progress, as whilst fairness and letting everyone play is good morality wise, not everyone is cut out to be Operations/raid material no matter how much time you put in (as you said Muppets are Muppets) or how well there equipment is, Whilst I am not a council member and cant see all the internal workings of the guild and all the behind the scene's changes/idea's I can see the changes in OP's runs as I lead them allowing me to see what changes need to be made (yes The council does take my opinion into account I am not denying this), that is essentially my only agenda/reason for wanting to moderate the OP's applications.

Hope these answers have been satisfactory.

Vladic

*edit : I wouldnt be alone Moderating the applications There would be the Raid assist for my Group and Twyster due to there experience/knowledge of what is required for past normal Operations, for Blue group this would be there Operations leadership