Looking for a camera

[Penfold]

I'm looking for a simple camera to replace my Canon 400D which I'm selling (see Exchange thread if interested).

The brief:
I'm not a photographer nor do I profess to be one. I need a camera which is somewhere between my point & click lumix and a proper full blown professional one (I know a man who does that :flirty:). It just needs to be good enough to take to client events and shows and take some half decent pictures.

I'm now sure what the generic term is the type of camera I want but I imagine it's going to be something similar to this Lumix G3 but I'm happy to look at anything which won't make me look totally out of place in a press pit.

Any thoughts or comments appreciated.

[smilodon]

Pay me to do the photo's you tight-wad.

The G3 is a decent camera but it might be considered as  downward move from a full DSLR like the 400D you're selling. Image quality is on a par with entry level DSLR's but mirror-less cameras like the G3 can't focus as fast or work in low light levels like a decent DSLR can. Coming from a compact camera they are certainly a step up but from an iconic camera like the 400D you might find them a bit limited. And as mentioned in low light or with fast moving subjects the focus might be a problem. For the same price as the G3 you could get a Nikon D3100 which is a really decent camera that can cope nicely with less than perfect shooting conditions.


This is a decent write up about mirror-less cameras like the G3 with the plus and minus points well discussed

[DrunkenZombiee]

All depends on what you need to get shots of. A micro four thirds like the Lumix can be pretty tight when shooting indoors even with a pretty wide lens. Also a smaller sensor with more pixels = more heat and possibly more noise. You still get quite a few more stops over your 400D as cameras have come on quite a bit since the 400D time. What glass do you need in front of it?

I disagree with Smilo about the focusing on the mirror-less as yes it will not compete with a high end full frame SLR but in theory mirror-less should be faster than Mirrored cameras due the the technology used. I have used a couple of Sony mirror-less which were faster and better focussing than the 7D which seriously impressed me. Most low end DSLR will not focus well and even some high end will not focus too fast like the 5D mark 2 which never was speedy. Mirrorless have the added advantage of being able to focus a-lot better when using live view so for video this is great as its like using a camcorder rather than an SLR. Saying that the 650D has this technology in it now but its still not as good as the mirrorless IMO

Personally I would go for something lightweight like the 650D or 550D if you need magic lantern as the difference between then and the 60D is the burst rate and a metal body. You will have all of the advantages of a proper camera but something more lightweight and without the price tag.

The glass is the most important part anyway =)

DZ

[Penfold]

Pay me to do the photo's you tight-wad.

May I refer the honourable gentleman to my first post:

I need a camera which is somewhere between my point & click lumix and a proper full blown professional one (I know a man who does that :flirty:).

Thanks for the comments. For whatever reason I just don't take good photos with the 400D. I know it' a good camera so it's down to user-error I'm afraid. I just want something simple that I don't need to twiddle an endless selection of knobs and dials to get some half decent photos of client events. They're not going to be used for press (well occasionally maybe but only small).

Won't the 500D or 650D give me the same problems as the 400d?

[DrunkenZombiee]

I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve here. For example my 550D has the following full auto modes where it will attempt to optimise the picture for you for the situation : AUTO, AUTO without flash, P mode, A-DEP, sports, low light, portrait, landscape, macro..... those are just the ones on the dial which require no fiddling with buttons to get setting right they are point and click. If you leave it in auto without flash you will get the photo everytime. If you want the camera to estimate the DoF for you then put it in A-DEP. If you are taking a portrait and want nice blurry background put it in portrait and it will optimise the setting for that. Landscape will leave everything in focus and optimise for that. Sports will give you a highish shutter speed and optimise all setting for that.

I think you may just need to read the manual as your camera will have way more auto modes than you think. You also have the option of using Aperture priority, time priority and manual mode when you want to tune the picture for something specific. I normally walk around in Aperture priority.

No camera can take a good photo for you as it doesn't know what you want unless you tell it and the most important thing in photography is not the camera but the imagination of the person standing behind it.

A point and shoot will have probably one or two modes. Yes less to worry about but worse pictures as it also doesn't know what you want to achieve.

Hope this doesn't sound rude.

DZ

[ArithonUK]

As luck would have it, I had an offer through from GroupOn this morning (http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/national-deal/ASK-Direct/13106507?nlp=&CID=UK_CRM_1_0_0_320&a=1664) for a D3100 for £309 which is about £11 better than Amazon's best price - a bargain.

My sister-in-law bought one as her first DSLR and the results have been amazing. http://www.flickr.com/photos/johunt/. She just got the camera to take baby photos! The built-in photo-guide is perfect for non-photographers (if you see what I mean).

I had the G1 and upgraded to the D5100 and I haver never regretted it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/arithonuk/

Hope that helps!

EDIT: Found a better price! £299 http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/nikon-d3100-299-99-argos-get-a-10-voucher-spending-more-than-100-35-cashback-from-1365442

[DrunkenZombiee]

Yep all entry level SLR will have this "guide" now. You still need to select what you want though for the type of shot.

Pen I strongly advise spending an hour reading the guide for your camera rather than investing in anything else as the 400D is a good camera.

Your brain needs the upgrade and not the camera =).

Loving your Sis'es pics Arithon, Specially on ones low to the ground with the shallow DoF. Really creative.

DZ

[smilodon]

The focus issue relates to tracking auto focus i.e. locking focus on a moving subject and maintaining that focus over the time required to take one or more pictures (usually no more thanks  few seconds in real world situations). The mirror or lack of it in a camera is the crucial factor.

A mirrored camera will simply bounce the image off the mirror and down into the auto focus unit. The auto focus system works by using a little device called a beam splitter to send light to the auto focus sensor in the base of the camera. Two tiny lenses each capture the light from opposite sides of the camera lens and direct it to the auto focus sensor. The two images are compared and something known as the separation error is calculated as well as the distance from the sensor to the subject. This error value is basically the value of how much the image is out of focus. Importantly the camera also knows if the focus is in front of (front focus) or behind (back focus) the subject. So it immediately moves the focus in the right direction. The adjustment is made and the image brought into focus. This process is known as phase detection. It's a very fast system that allows high end professional DSLR's to grab focus in a fraction of a second and hold it even if the subject is moving towards or away from the camera at speed. Even in lower spec DSLR's the phase detection system works well and it's easy to get quick focus on subjects.

Another feature of phase detection is that the camera can still focus well in relatively low light. My cameras are bit more advanced than a Canon 400D but I've learnt that even when I cannot see anything much through the viewfinder in very dark conditions, my camera can ,and if I let it do it's thing the resulting pictures are usually well focused.

Mirror-less cameras don't have this feature as they simply send light directly to the sensor. They use a system known as contrast focus which detects the intensity difference between areas of light and dark in the image. The greater the difference the sharper the focus. The camera adjusts the lens until the maximum contrast between the light and dark areas is found. A feature of contrast focus is that the camera cannot range find the distance to the subject (as a DLSR can) and therefore has no way of knowing if the focus in in front or behind the subject. The camera has to hunt back and forward to find it. It also needs to focus past the correct point and then pull back to make sure it's reached proper focus. This makes the system inherently slower than phase detection. Another feature is that in low light situations contrast is often very poor and so the contrast focus system can struggle and sometimes completely fail to obtain good focus.

But back to the point in hand. I also don't think you'll necessarily get better shots from a G3 than you're getting from the 400D. The 400D has an auto mode that lets the camera do most of the heavy lifting which is going to be no worse than the equivalent system in the G3. To be honest there's probably not a lot of difference between entry level DSLR's and new mirror-less systems for most photography situations. If you want to post some examples of the images you're unhappy with we could try to make a few suggestions. Maybe we could buddy up for the next trade show and do some photography together?

Then again this is also a chance to buy a new shiny gadget which is almost reason enough to just say 'to hell with it' and get the Lumix anyway

[Penfold]

I don't know, it's strange. Attached are some photos of a house I took. they are dark and it just didn't work. Yes it was bright outside but even so. I ended up taking some with my small camera and they were just as good if not better.

Thanks

[DrunkenZombiee]

Mirror-less cameras don't have this feature as they simply send light directly to the sensor. They use a system known as contrast focus which detects the intensity difference between areas of light and dark in the image. The greater the difference the sharper the focus. The camera adjusts the lens until the maximum contrast between the light and dark areas is found. A feature of contrast focus is that the camera cannot range find the distance to the subject (as a DLSR can) and therefore has no way of knowing if the focus in in front or behind the subject. The camera has to hunt back and forward to find it. It also needs to focus past the correct point and then pull back to make sure it's reached proper focus. This makes the system inherently slower than phase detection. Another feature is that in low light situations contrast is often very poor and so the contrast focus system can struggle and sometimes completely fail to obtain good focus.

Wrong information there mate as mirror-less has the ability for better phase than mirrored on most SLR these days. Here is a good read for some of arguments.

There are Mirrorless now which are more than just a contrast array the translucent mirror still reflects some light to a phase detection array, so you can use AF all of the time even in video or live view via phase rather than being interrupted when the mirror moves. This means better tracking AF than a Mirrored DSLR is capable of and you can use phase detection and contrast detection at the same time. BIG WIN over traditional tech where its one or the other. Mirrorless has a greater flexibility for AF now and huge win in the future when they refine the technology more.

Even bigger win for video.

The new Sony DSLR are Mirrorless and have the best focussing on pretty much any SLR out there.

I don't know, it's strange. Attached are some photos of a house I took. they are dark and it just didn't work. Yes it was bright outside but even so. I ended up taking some with my small camera and they were just as good if not better.



Thanks

I see a higher Dynamic range from the SLR pictures, greater contrast and a different metering system used from the pictures (all of these are highly prized by photographers). Your SLR gives you the option to meter differently to get the contrast correct. You have spot metering, center weighted average, full metering acorss the entire picture etc.

I think the thing you are noticing more is the shallow DOF from some of the pictures. This can be solved easily but upping the f-stop to make everything in focus. As the point and shoot has a smaller sensor it will naturally have larger DOF than your 400D. This will make everything look more crisp.

I would ask you to go round the house now in Av mode (say f/10 ish), A-DEP set to far or landscape mode to fix this as it will then have more in focus.

You just need to instruct in on what you want it to do.

Metering mode is a bit more complicated but I tend to use centre weighted average myself and leave it be most of the time. With bright sunlight indoors meter what is inside the house by using spot metering rather than full frame. This will "Blow out" the highlight sfrom outside but everything indoors will look bright crisp with outside just looking like white light.

As you don't have live view on your 400D use the use the DoF preview button on your 400D, it should be close to the lens ejection button. This will let you see what is and is not on focus through the viewfinder.

Hope this helps.

DZ

[smilodon]

Basically I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. When considering stills photography the fasted way to get a decent focus lock is through the use of a mirror box and phase detection focusing. Contrast focusing with or without dedicated phase detecting pixels on the sensor is always slower. That may change but for any camera on the market at the moment phase is quicker. Live view and shooting video is a completely different thing and the hybrid system is very fast and faster than previous methods.

However I don't believe Pen was thinking about buying a camera with the new hybrid focus system and so we're comparing just phase to just contrast. Also i'm guessing he doesn't give a monkeys about what bit of incomprehsible tech is or isn't inside his new camera :norty:

In a nutshell I don't think there's going to be a step change in the quality of images taken with a G3 over a 400D. And shooting inside in trade shows that often have questionable lighting is going to challenge the G3 more than it will the 400D.

[DrunkenZombiee]

They are not phase detection pixels on the sensor though. The translucent mirror reflects up to the same system as a DSLR but less light is reflected up. Same thing but no moving mirror aka mirror-less and it works all the time even when taking the photos. The Sony's work like this and they are class leading for AF currently.

Agree that the 400D would be better than the G3 in lower light but the G3 will have better ISO performance possibly with a newer sensor.

Pen:
Stick with the 400D and save yourself some money and invest instead in learning your way around the camera which will be applicable to all SLR or compacts moving forward. Bring it to the next LAN and I would be happy to geek out and answer any questions.

If you have any questions let me know and I am sure Smilo be happy to help you, (he will know EVERYTHING, how to compose and set up a camera and tons of best practice stuff that self taught people like me will not). I will write up a guide on this later when I have time as I have always wanted to write something for myself on this as I had to learn this all the hard way.

DZ.

[Penfold]

Thanks guys.

TBH I lost interest in this thread from about #6 when it started getting over my head.

I do appreciate all your comments but fundamentally I'm not interested in learning how to use the 400D properly....... or rather I don't *want* to have to learn how to use it properly - I just want to fire and forget as it were.

I'll have a play with DOF as you suggest but really, if it's going to be much more than that, it ain't going to happen. I'm not a professional photographer and I don't want to be a professional photographer. That's what I pay Smilo for

[essy]

Sorry Penfold to hop on this thread ,but as you guys know your stuff

How does the NEX cameras stack up .NEX 5R ,NEX 6.

Looking for an in between camera that small like my tz7 which i take every where
so it get used ,but not a full on dslr jobbie .That wouldn't get used .
Any advice welcome

[Penfold]

Looking for an in between camera that small like my tz7 which i take every where
so it get used ,but not a full on dslr jobbie .That wouldn't get used .
Any advice welcome

Exactly my point (and issue). In fact I have the same TZ7 which is a cracking little camera.

Hijack away.