Vlad's post

[TeaLeaf]

I've refrained from posting the following in Vlad's thread as it's more appropriate here.  I think you need to look at the whole 'where you raid' in a different way.  For example, here's RGT's approach:

RGT recently took on an i462 warlock and a new mage.
In the week before the expansion RGT chose to forgo further heroic progress and instead to complete an MV clearance to ensure we maximised the gear up opportunities for those new recruits.
Agastrat is now i489 and Devlan is i492 - both still need some gear ups.
RGT have elected this week to try to go back to ToES again as we have some needed upgrades there.
RGT only stopped doing MV this week as there were still some missing drops from some people (and it's a 75 minute clear on Normal).
RGT have taken on several under-geared people in past tiers and have always made the attempt to go back to gear those people to progress-required levels as under-geared members hinder progress rather than help.

I absolutely agree that Vlad needs to be doing his rep, buying with his VP and spending time in LFR - and as Whitey said, he needs to want to raid for RGW not the other way around!   But, as a raid leader I am also of the opinion that by spending half a night in MV you might see more of an an improvement in RGW's capabilities if it provides several upgrades for new members, which in turn will help you in your progress content.   There's a balance to be struck here, if you leave some behind due to their poor ilevel then you are also choosing to hurt the raid in progress terms.

Yes you only have 2 nights per week, so you get to decide where the best returns are.   If you are under-geared then progress will be harder and at the moment you do not have the luxury of a queue to sit under-geared people out for the more difficult bosses.  So in my view the choice boils down to:
-hit your head harder against an encounter with insufficient gear and spend more time wiping on it
-take one step back to go two steps forward

Hopefully you now see why I did not post this in the Member's section.

That's my 2 cents.   Over to you.

[Sharpfang]

i see your point TL. I wouldnt mind that much to go there and spend half a raid night there. BUT, we have some people, mostly Pen that really really
doesnt want to go there. And shes had a bad attitude lately. We spend one night on a boss we just got to, and shes so frustrated she threatens to
leave. We need to either adress it to her and sort it or recruit another healer as well. Clares situation is still undecided, he cant come half of the time,
that also puts strain on us.

Our main issue i think is that we have several people underperforming compared to their gear. In my OS gear and spec i do over 100k most of the time
in this fight and id think that main spec dpsers should be higher? All dpsers should have dual specs, for single target or aoe, but i dont think they do.
 Im all out of ideas of what to do bout it

/sharp

edit: on another note, personally i think Vlad has put very little effort into his gear. Look at demis priest, hes over 480 with LFR and crafts mostly. Hell
my priest alt is on 481! As Slush pointed out, hes done ONE ToES and ONE HoF LFR. I dont mind gearing people up, but this is clearly a case where he
couldve done a better job with his homework. I also asked him to swap his dragon roar for Bladestorm as it does a massive amount of damage on that
many targets, but he did not respond

edit 2: i just looked at his gear. hes on 482 and should be doing way way more. im on 489 in comparison in my OS

PS: he did close to no damage with dragon roar looking at the logs

[TeaLeaf]

Clearly at the moment the priority is to find another healer (and possibly two).  We'll keep spamming and hopefully we'll get a bite soon.  The good news is that you can 2 heal ALL of Normal MV (so you could offer to sit her out if you felt inclined to accommodate her hatred of the instance!).

Underperformance has been an issue for a while I have maintained a position on this for a considerable period of time now.   RGW need to employ some kind of performance management or the problem will continue.

-recruit sufficient so we have a queue in every raid (we're all working on this)
-swap out weak performers where appropriate (which you can only do when you have a queue)
-manage performance (which you can do now)

If RGW is a purely social raid then we do not need to performance manage people, but the message that comes across from RGW time and time again is that more progress is wanted.   Therefore you need to do some performance management.

Slight aside on performance management:
Care needs to be taken when doing performance management.  It should be calm, rational, supportive and set clear goals & expected outcomes.  The old saying of SMART goals: Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Time-bound.    

Specific - both the positive & negative outcomes:
1 - "in order to do this boss we really need higher DPS to beat the enrage, so we're looking at ways of maximising everyone's performance and we think we can help you increase your dps in this way"
2 - "if you struggle to reach don't reach the required level of dps for this boss then we might need to sit you for this and other similar fights" (ie you are setting their expectation for the future)

Measurable - logs make it is easy to identify the areas where they can really lift their dps (note the positive terminology)
Attainable - logs demonstrate it can be done by referencing other players/performances
Relevant - this bits really means making sure that the goal is the best goals for the dps increase you are seeking (ie asking a shadow priest to increase mastery to help increase crit% would be a dps increase, but not a relevant goal as there are other better ones that improve dps)
Time-bound - rep can be done by this date (calculate it), "let's aim to get the dot uptime to X% within the next 2 weeks, then we'll review it with you again", etc.

I have tended to do this with all new ranged dps that have joined RGT (regretably not yet with Agastrat, but it is on my 'to do' list) and it does work.

Switch did not feel sufficiently competent or confident enough to performance manage, but it is a role which provides great returns if done properly.   With only 2 nights per week there is no time to carry people who cannot perform to acceptable levels if you want progress.

The comments you made to Vlad are exactly the type of feedback new members need.  Perhaps it might be a good opportunity then to use it as a carrot?    "We'll go back to MV for a night, but we also want to see you doing LFR, maxxing rep, spending VP, maximising your build & rotation (dragon roar etc)"  

I am sure that some RGT mains can help cover gaps if you are short (or need to sit Pen) as it is no longer an RGT-locked raid.  I'd be happy to offer my priest for a 90 minute MV clear for example and I am sure we could persuade others to help out too if needed.  

Social with Mains?
Heck, we could even try to organise it as a quick social MV and prio the gear up people for loot? (Vladic & Agastrat are the two that spring to mind - is there anyone else we need to gear?).  I can try to sort it as a 'social but main-led' 90 minute MV for Friday night if you want?

New LFR
All this having been said, we need to make sure everyone piles into the new LFR coming out too.  The loot is too good to miss for most people!

[Sharpfang]

my problem is i dont know too much about rotations etc for other classes than warriors, and partly shadow priests. If i see a mage underperforming i cant say
with confidence "why is this ability so low on ure dps when it should be higher". Vlads problem is quite easy to spot, no bladestorm will make up for a lot of his lost damage.
he started using whirlwind after i commented on how low his was compared to mine when i was doing twice his damage. An ilvl of 489 compared to a 482 shouldnt be
that much of a difference in my opinion

edit: about giving feedback to people about what theyre doing wrong is not one of my strong sides, i tend to come off as too harsh, might be a language thing

[Sharpfang]

Totally on board with the social with mains concept, and doing LFR every week should almost be mandatory. If im online at the given friday ill tag along,
most fridays is a no go for me tho, due to work and/or drinking.

edit: and doing them as social with mains is much much more benficial for RGW, as our progress in HoF will be stunted if we spend 1/4 of our raid time in MV

edit 2: askmrrobot might not be correct about everything, but Vlad still has a lot of reforging etc to have done according to this

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/aszune/vladic

[TeaLeaf]

We can help where possible with feedback.   The thing to do is to tap up the appropriate dude from RGT.  

(sorry fellas, I'm about to volunteer us all)

Tanks & Melee DPS: Hal & Whitey
Healers: Jas and TL
Ranged DPS: TL

We can build a program to performance manage people over the next few weeks, it doesn't all need to be done at once!    
Firstly, at the raid tomorrow night let everyone know that you will be starting a program whereby you will be contacting everyone over the next 3-4 weeks to try to help people maximise their potential performance.
Then select the people to start with, examine logs (with our help if needed) and build some data & action points.
Then do a TS chat/PM with those you have targeted (again, we can accompany if needed).
Those that are not targeted, simply have a quick TS chat telling them they are doing well, keep it up and could they perhaps try to help the other less well performing players improve.

It's not easy and perhaps we should not have to do it, but I've always felt it was needed every raid group I have ever been in and I've always seen positive (if not always ideal) results.

[TeaLeaf]

There ya go, I posted a thread for a possible Friday night MV.  If we get enough commitment from RGT/RGW it should go real quick and resolve the problem for both RGW & RGT. (Aga has 4 slots that would be upgraded by MV drops)

[Sharpfang]

thanks for that, much appreciated. our main concern is with our dps as i see it, tanks and healers seem to be performing on par.
only thing ive got to comment on might be marios gear, he shoudlnt be running with brewmaster and a blue trinket at this point

[Sharpfang]

just saw now that Pen has declined her further invites. We need a new healer pronto

[TeaLeaf]

Ok, well I did the shout just now again, all we can do is keep the fingers crossed.

Amber's a main spec healer yes?    Just thinking of the trinket he posted he wanted - Aga's a warlock and also needs it, he's currently using the i450 engineering trinket and Amber is using 2 x 489 healer trinks?

Let's get people to buy the decks?  They're cheap now that the tiers have advanced (also told that to Aga).

[Sharpfang]

there are also trinkets to be gotten for valor, 1 x 489 from shado pan revered, 1 x 496 from operation shieldwall revered.
with the reduction in valor cost for 5.0 items they should be fast and easy to upgrade.

im using the shout at a regular frequency, 2 x healer and 1 x ranged. should maybe even announce for 2 x ranged?

Mario mentioned that Ztealmax might be joining on his lock as a raider? whats the status on that?

edit: amber does a lot of dps for us tho, all the fights that only require 2 healers he goes dps most of the time.
might change now that Pen is gone tho

[TeaLeaf]

I've avoided shouting for 2 ranged dps as it might look like we're running short, so even though we might take 2 healers & 2 dps I am still shouting for 1 of each!

Re Amber: he's a muppet sometimes.   The weapon he has posted he needs is about 7% worse than the one he already has! :doh:   We can talk about trinkets if one drops I guess.  

No idea about Ztealmax.  Tanales or Mario?

[Mariotet]

Zteálmax looked like he was trying to upgrade his gear now but i dont know how good it is yet.
He should be with on that raid to get the gear and then we have Shonia resto shammy thats needs a lot of gear aswell and she is trying hard what i can understand.

BTW about Vlad wasnt he going on his DK as soon as he could for going as third tank?

[Sharpfang]

according to the guild log Ztealmax left the guild 23 hours ago.

If it is gonna take vlad as long to gear his dk as his warrior were gonna be at the next expansion by the time hes done

edit: id like someone to have a serious chat with Pendice. I should not be me, as im gonna rage. Shes declined all foreseeable
invitations, having her on the list as declined is just ****. Demote and remove her from the invite list if she doesnt want to raid,
instead of having her on it just with a big red DECLINED on it

[Mariotet]

the Ztealmax that left was a lvl 11 mage need to have the Zteálmax right he has a couple of the same name