CS_RIO

[FBG]

:argue:
Ok this is because of me, and no i dont go for cheap kills. So please dont use that as your reasoning behind my pushing the boundaries.

As far as im concerned your explanation of the boundaries is now a pointless one. How can you sit there and preach a no boundaries policy when there quite clearly are very specific boundaries (invisible petty line) your apparently not allowed to across.

Yeah yeah, i understand the whole objective based rules, and thats great but please dont get all pissed off when i decide that a pre-emptive rush would work. You talk about tactics and team based play yet when we try and break from you norm you suddenly start preaching the law.

This is my reasoning behind my move on rio and aztec towards crossing the boundaries.

For me rushing a point is just like any other tactic i.e. destractions, creeping, split teaming, bomb alone team rush. Each of these is a specific strategic play to confuse the enemy. All of these are mind tricks and work well. Now i dont see why rushing a point the enemy aren't expecting is any less valid.

Ok so the bad points are you might get caught with your pants down and your whole team die. Rushing inevitable means giving up the advantage of cover and well practiced tactics. i.e. on aztec where DD, water/bridge and bridge room are all covered and successfull attack calls bring in organised backup.

Yet this doesn't always work, a well executed door rush can catch a slow or diminished CT team of gaurd.

So this scenario is where a good bridge rush on the CT teams behalf can work if called well. Like the other night, Ts do not expect Cts through the double doors. I nailed 4 T's (ok some luck) mostly unaware because of rushing the bridge room (with another player) and flanking T's. This move was called while buying weapons and no i wouldn't have done it if i didn't have backup. (there wouldn't have been any point)

Back to Rio, ok yes i was alone. I spawned under the CT window next to the toilets and wanted to get into the building, seeing CT i squatted on the steps and caught one guy running through.

There are no boundaries, just good play. I see the shanty town as a great place for well organised sweep by say 2 players(T's). Especially if the CT's unawares or you decide that the sacrifice will mean an overall advantage for the rest of the team (may CTs are always going through the footy pitch for instance).

Anyways, bitch as much as you like. My overall point is this. You said no written boundaries just an emphasis on good team play. I just dont completely agree that you should rubbish a tactical move because your supposed to gaurd the hossies. I can equally gaurd the hossie from any of the facing buildings (that CTs use) It gives me distance if im not good at combat or have a scout. It also allows me opportunity to move and cover the footy pitch or front door.

On a personal note, ive been playing on this server for a good year now solely because i cant stand Death match play and i never play counterstrike for easy kills. I play to win as a team, telling me i wanted easy kills really pissed me off.



I'll play by the rules, there easy enough to understand, just dont ever tell me i play for easy kills.

 :rant:

[SLoWHaND]

Originally posted by DarkAngel@Dec 9 2003, 01:35 AM
Ive seen it happen so many times now mainly by the new guys we need to make sure the understand the tactical way and not the no team frag monkey style.

Hmmm and Ive witnessed your goodself doing it on aztec.
Comming thru the double doors to early in the round.
When told to stick to objectives you replied I was the objective and added a smilie in the console  :learn:

Oh yeah I died as well.


SLoWHaND

[Dr Sadako]

Originally posted by FBG@Dec 9 2003, 07:39 PM
:argue:
Ok this is because of me, and no i dont go for cheap kills. So please dont use that as your reasoning behind my pushing the boundaries.

No this post is not bacause of just you FBG. There have been at least 5 or 6 similar events on Rio the last week. One including a T rushing up the ramp from the soccerfield towards CT spawn right after round start!

As far as im concerned your explanation of the boundaries is now a pointless one. How can you sit there and preach a no boundaries policy when there quite clearly are very specific boundaries (invisible petty line) your apparently not allowed to across.

So by this you justify anything i.e. no rules at all??? There are no boundaries in the sense of lines in the sand as TL expressed it i.e. the old PCS style. However, the objective is of priority and hence there will be limitations to where you can and should go to fulfil the objective. In a sense yes boundaries.

Yeah yeah, i understand the whole objective based rules, and thats great but please dont get all pissed off when i decide that a pre-emptive rush would work. You talk about tactics and team based play yet when we try and break from you norm you suddenly start preaching the law.

It is not MY norm it is the ADMINS norm and the norm of the community. If you check TL's and BB's posts they agree that it is not allowed.

This is my reasoning behind my move on rio and aztec towards crossing the boundaries.

For me rushing a point is just like any other tactic i.e. destractions, creeping, split teaming, bomb alone team rush. Each of these is a specific strategic play to confuse the enemy. All of these are mind tricks and work well. Now i dont see why rushing a point the enemy aren't expecting is any less valid.

Ok so the bad points are you might get caught with your pants down and your whole team die. Rushing inevitable means giving up the advantage of cover and well practiced tactics. i.e. on aztec where DD, water/bridge and bridge room are all covered and successfull attack calls bring in organised backup.

Back to Rio, ok yes i was alone. I spawned under the CT window next to the toilets and wanted to get into the building, seeing CT i squatted on the steps and caught one guy running through.

There are no boundaries, just good play. I see the shanty town as a great place for well organised sweep by say 2 players(T's). Especially if the CT's unawares or you decide that the sacrifice will mean an overall advantage for the rest of the team (may CTs are always going through the footy pitch for instance).

This is a team and objective oriented style of play. There is no I in team. You acted on your own without thought of your team or the objective. You even say so yourself.

Yet this doesn't always work, a well executed door rush can catch a slow or diminished CT team of gaurd.

So this scenario is where a good bridge rush on the CT teams behalf can work if called well. Like the other night, Ts do not expect Cts through the double doors. I nailed 4 T's (ok some luck) mostly unaware because of rushing the bridge room (with another player) and flanking T's. This move was called while buying weapons and no i wouldn't have done it if i didn't have backup. (there wouldn't have been any point)

I have no problem at all with CT rushing the bridge or DD if it is called for BUT you must consider that you are being played when leaving one site ungarded. In the last 2 weeks I have seen CTs caught with their pants down when doing a stupid rush and Ts planting at the 'wrong' bombsite. I have also observed numerous ambushes on the CTs doing this.

Anyways, bitch as much as you like. My overall point is this. You said no written boundaries just an emphasis on good team play. I just dont completely agree that you should rubbish a tactical move because your supposed to gaurd the hossies. I can equally gaurd the hossie from any of the facing buildings (that CTs use) It gives me distance if im not good at combat or have a scout. It also allows me opportunity to move and cover the footy pitch or front door.

First of all that wasn't the case. You weren't in any of the facing buildings and you were closer to CT spawn than the hostages. Just that fact should tell you that you are way out. You could not see or even hear if the hostages were touched or not at that location and you weren't you overlooking the footballpitch. The only thing you were guarding was the intersection of two paths from CT spawn leading to the stairs.
I really don't know what to say about you thinking the work we admins do on the server is 'bitching', but that is something that you have to stand for.

On a personal note, ive been playing on this server for a good year now solely because i cant stand Death match play and i never play counterstrike for easy kills. I play to win as a team, telling me i wanted easy kills really pissed me off.

Good! I have been playing PCS since the start of PCS almost 3 years ago and what you did was not PCS/TCS/team oriented/objective oriented at all.

I have nothing against you Flibber and my original post was not directed at you but rather as a guide for all that play in our community. As an admin I will treat all with the same medicine indifferent if they wear dMw tag or not.

See you on the server.

[TeaLeaf]

OK folks, I'm calling time, enough already.  Let's try to keep the discussion at debate level please and avoid sinking into personal flame war territory.  
I considered closing the thread or transferring it to Compost Corner, but it is a healthy discussion, so long as we stick to the debate only.

TCS & Rules
Under the old PCS we were very prescriptive.  We set out the rules (team then objective) and to save you having to work out for yourself what that meant on each map we drew a 'line in the sand' over which you should not cross.  The sheer number of rules and map limits scared the hell out of a load of people and it put them off the team and objective based style of play that we love so much.

TCS is an attempt to make the game more approachable, we want the style of play to thrive not flounder under the weight of its own rules and map limits.  However, the basic principles that underpin TCS have actually not changed in any significant way from those that were the foundations of PCS.   So, TCS does *not* mean 'no boundaries'.  The same priorities remain - team, objective.  Apply these these priorities to the map and you will come up with your own boundaries.  TCS is new, but think of it as PCS without the painted lines and you'll do just fine.  

On behalf of Oldbloke and myself I would urge all members to try to maintain a team then objective based approach to the game.  There is a massive temptation to take advantage of not having prescriptive map boundaries, but we should try to resist the urge.  The change was to principally to encourage more people to play our game our way.  With these new players joining in relative droves at the moment it is up to us, the experienced members, to be the shining example.  Players fresh from the frag school of life need help and if we stick to our map priorities and help them learn about teamwork & the importance of the objective then we will all have a better time.

If you are unsure if what you are doing is allowed then ask yourself these questions:

• Are my actions constructive for the team?
• Are my actions part of a co-ordinated team strategy?
• Do my actions help achieve the objective?
• How far away from the objective am I?

I hope this helps.

TL.

[smilodon]

FBG does make a point. If you accept that his actions are designed to bring about a successful result for the T's i.e. that the hostages stay put, then moving off round the map is a valid tactic.

However it should be part of a co-ordinated plan. Everyone on the team should know exactly where the other players are and what they are doing. We still don't communicate enough on Rio. I'm guilty too but Rio is a map that cries out for near running commentary from the team as to where they are and what they can see.

On the other hand I don't like the idea of anyone rushing doors or lone sniping. On Rio T's should be in the house, in one of the buildings just outside or at their end of the football pitch. No one should be more than a quick sprint from the hostages.

Surprise rushes might win round but they don't add much to gameplay. T's all coming through the double doors and wiping out a surprised CT force might win a round but it's not much fun for anyone.

I know the old map boundaries and I'm struggling to thing of a single one where breaking those old boundaries would be more than a very occassional, team effort.

I'd suggest every time someone says to themselves 'I'm going past the old boundary' (or deep into enemy territory) they ask themselves 'why am I doing this and who else knows about it?'

[0ni0n]

If you are unsure if what you are doing is allowed then ask yourself these questions:
Are my actions constructive for the team?
Are my actions part of a co-ordinated team strategy?
Do my actions help achieve the objective?
How far away from the objective am I?

The problem i see at the moment is everybody naturally has different opinions!

I'd suggest every time someone says to themselves 'I'm going past the old boundary' (or deep into enemy territory) they ask themselves 'why am I doing this and who else knows about it?'

This is fine for pcs players but what about new recruits that have not played with boundary.

[TeaLeaf]

The reason everyone has different opinions is that they are all trying to work out where the limits of reasonable behaviour are for themselves instead of having it given to them on a plate.  Order will eventually reign!

As for those who have not played PCS, that's what you're here for.  It is the job of every member of this community to keep the gameplay at the level we want it.  Help new members understand the ethos of team & objective-based gameplay, then we'll all be just dandy.

TL.

[0ni0n]

Agreed

 *salutes TL and gets back into rank*  :ph34r:

[FBG]

sorry, when someone tells me im just going for cheap & easy kills, that annoyes me. I dont consider your judgement calls to be bitching, i was just ticked off. You all do an amazing job of running the servers which is to be admired.

I stand by my point though, yes i was alone, but that was soley because i spawned below the window and thought i'd make it into the building before you did. I was going to squat down and let you all pass. The only reason i got caught was because i didn't know how quick it takes both T and CT to get to the same point.

Yes i can cover the hossies from the out buildings, Not the one i was heading for, that was a different. But the kitchen and the facing building can give me some indication of whats happening within the house. I nailed one guy from the kitchen who was trying to get the hossies. I'd rather pick someone off from a distance than close combat 2 people in that house.  I can also make an educated guess as to whether i think there taking the front door or the footie pitch route home.

Rio is a small map, so i'll stick to the house.

I just think that from a match point of view our tactics are to much based how we play on meathook and that as a team we'd all benefit from trying out the occasional T offensive tatic on say a hossie map. Its different and if well practiced and used at the right times it can work well. I'll try and organise a more team based effort in the future when it comes to trying something new that might be considered unheared off.

[ChimpBoy]

I think flibber has something of a point - smilo is talking about fun in the rounds in the post above but that's a bit subjective to me.  

To one man, deathmatching is fun, to many here it is not.  Perhaps one or two Ts rushing on rio might throw cts into disarray (a valid tacticle supposition in my opinion).  Same as a concerted team T rush - if it wipes out the cts then so be it. I'm sure it was fun for the Ts and next time the CTs will modify their behaviour.  Bringing an element of unpredictability into the tactics will help the fun and also help dMw in matches.  If the experience is played as a team then I think the fun will follow.

I can see where the admins want to take this and the thought is noble - in time I'm sure an equilibrium will be found that probably doesnt differ from PCS rules, just with the odd tactical "offshoot" every now and again.  No probs with that.  Just be careful to help anyone new to the server

[DarkAngel]

We play very differently on the mh as we do on matches so i think we would all benefit if we had some trainig seesions that we had a while ago usually on a sunday just to get us all ship shape. I know we have matches on sundays but some people if free could join say 1 hour before the match so they are rdy to play and there fore warmed up.  And how about in the warm-ups allowing say awm practices for those snipers who may wish to use them in the match?

[cbm.daveybaby]

Hmmmm.... Dunno if this is in keeping with TCS rules, but you you could always rip the T spawn entities and move them further away from CT spawn on your TCS servers... unless of course you prefer to rely on (or otherwise enforce) people's good nature  

[TeaLeaf]

Reliance on our members has worked since we started, so I guess we'll keep doing that as it is easier than moving the spawn points :lol:

TL.

[TeaLeaf]

Somehow we managed to end up with the old version of cs_rio on the server.  I have installed what I believe to be the newer version of cs_rio (the version where the 4th hostage doesn't get stuck) and would be grateful if you peeps could confirm that it works ok now

Cheers.

TL.

[Squonk]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Feb 8 2004, 08:56 AM
Somehow we managed to end up with the old version of cs_rio on the server. I have installed what I believe to be the newer version of cs_rio (the version where the 4th hostage doesn't get stuck) and would be grateful if you peeps could confirm that it works ok now

Cheers.

TL.

Seems fine