Israel

[Benny]

Could someone give me a potted history on the state of Israel and Palestine and the current troubles.

I know about the allocation of land after the war, but is that purely the source of the conflict? The allocated Holy Land?

Ta.

Not googled because there are a million sites with different content, I wanted a brief non-biased rundown.....ta...

[Dingo]

http://middleeastreference.org.uk/Chronology.html

[suicidal_monkey]

dunno how accurate this is (it is the web after all...) but this seems to detail some of the history of that messy region

in short a lot of different peoples with differing cultures and religions seem to have populated the region at various times.  It'd seem a lot of the more recent borders were sketched in by the French and the British, and that the communities that have lived in the region have been both opressed and opressors at different points in history. Conflict was stirred by both "sides" in the world wars, and the usual red tape style population separation and border-drawing took place. A few messy wars and more new borders!

Lets just say it's been a disputed territory for a seriously long time...source of conflict? Human beings being stubborn and set in their ways after centuries of unresolved arguing? I dunno really. madness! <_<



p.s. as I keep getting told ... google is your friend! :unsure:

[smilodon]

Christ you don't want much do you  

Up until 1947 Palastine was basically owned by Britain. After the second world war the League of Nations agreed to split Palestine into two (Israel & Jordan) in order to give tone  half to the Jews, thus allowing them to create their own nation, Israel. Palestine the British dependacy ceased to exist. The Arab world rejected the idea and refused to recognise Israel as a legitimate country.

Over the next 30 years various Arab nations attacked Israel with the idea of ending it's existance and of creating a new State of Palestine, run by Arabs Palastinians.

These wars were:    
    * 1948 War of Independence
    * 1956 Sinai War
    * 1967 Six Day War
    * 1973 Yom Kippur War


Each time Israel won and captured big chunks of Arab territory. They withdrew from most of it, with the exception fo the West Bank & Jerusalem from Jordan, The Golan Heights from Syria and The Sinai from Egypt.

In 1967 The PLO came into being and began a terrorist war against Israel. Form then to now it's basically been a row about the return of the seized territory, recognition of Israel as a legitimate state and the creation of an independent  State of Palistine that includes some access/ownership of Jerusalem.

A side issue is the fact that Israel started a program of building Jewish settlments on the captured Arab territory. This seemed to be a sign that they were planning to keep the land for good. There's other stuff about Israel invading the Lebanon and reducing Beruit to rubble but that's about it in a nutshell

A real description can be found HERE.  However I couldn't be fagged to read it myself so I've no idea if it's biased to one side or the other?

[Benny]

Ok, having read all that, and stating the remarkabley obvious, it's essentially intolerant Arabs and Jews who can't possibly live together.

Friction increased by the enforcing of borders and manipulation by the British mandate.

So, how does the situation resolve itself. Is it just ignored until one side or the other forces the card?
Does the coalition (of 2) go and sort it out for oil reasons and stability in the region. As I see it the middle east is one great big fck up wainting to happen, so my question would be.....what would you do or advise that was done..

[smilodon]

I haven't got a scooby doo to be honest. Like a lot of things I don't think any of the major players are big enough people to stand up and deal with the situation. Anyone is a position to do something constructive doesn't have the insight, vision or strength to achieve anything positive. Bill Clinton (for all his faults) was the closest thing to someone who could actually make a diference and broker a peace. Sadly he served his two terms before he could complete his goal and the intellectual pygmy George Dubya took over and buggerd it all up. One day a Jewish PM and a Palestinian Leader will arrive and both will have the balls to make peace once and for all.

[DonkeyCheeseGrater]

The big problem with any solution offered is no matter what the palastinian people may want, those people pulling the strings acnowledge that they will not settle for anything less than the annihilation of the Jewish state.  I had some friends who worked in Israel for some time in a community where Arabs and Israelis lived side by side, without any problem and the Jewish people, in that area at least, were desperate for peace and to help the Palastinians.  However i have also heard from Palastinians who as children were taught in school to hate the Jews, that Israel has no right to exist and that the killing of Israelis was acceptable.  With this mindset drummed into many of the people there is little hope of lasting peace all the time that Israel remains as a nation (which it should do).  Also with many anti Israeli states in the region, such as Syria, there will be no shortage fuel to the fire.

What is the answer?  There is none as things stand at the moment imho.

[albert]

On the other hand to Donk's info, there is big ole US of A and it's part in the whole thing. Fuelling hatred by helping one side but also there was an interesting article a few weeks ago taken from Bill Clinton's Autobiography that basically described how Arafat had the chance to end the whole thing and did not. To quote, Arafat said to Clinton on his final days in office, "You are a great man" and Clinton replied "no I'm a failure because of you".

I vote for a football match to decide it all.

[smilodon]

To expand on my last post. It will need extraordinary people. And we don't have any involved in the problem right now.

India had Ghandi, South Africa had Mandella, Poland had Lech Walesa and the USSR had Gorbachev. During the war we had Churchill and Roosevelt and so on and so on.

Right now we have Sharon, Abbas, Bush and Blair . All of them are little people, and not one of them has what it takes to make real change.

One day that will change...

[ChimpBoy]

Originally posted by smilodon@Jul 5 2004, 01:53 PM
A side issue is the fact that Israel started a program of building Jewish settlments on the captured Arab territory

I think council tends to understate what is essentially the biggest stumbling block (bar the wider issue of fundamentalism) to a speedy resolution

[smilodon]

I'm trying not to let my clear sympathies for the Palestinian people cloud my narative  

[ChimpBoy]

Originally posted by Benny@Jul 6 2004, 12:16 PM
As I see it the middle east is one great big fck up wainting to happen, so my question would be.....what would you do or advise that was done..

Bit unfair mate - The middle east is highlighted in the media frenzy these days, but these issues are by no means confined to this area.  Similar struggles for the right to exist as a nation state exist all around the globe.

Kashmir, Tibet, Taiwan, Ireland, various disputed areas of Indonesia (e.g. East Timor), and central Africa.

The real commonalities are the tendrils of post-colonialism that persist to exert an influence.....

[TeaLeaf]

As a certain 'american general' Kenny Everett character once said,

"round 'em up, put 'em in a field and BOMB the bar stewards"

Here endeth Politics & Diplomacy 101.  There will be a test at the end of the semester.

TL.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by albert@Jul 6 2004, 05:34 PM
I vote for a football match to decide it all.

Bet the Bloomin Greeks would win that one an all!!  


Interestingly enough it is a little known widely held belief from ancient writings that the palestinians and jews are supposed to have been from the same tribe thousands of years ago but split into two factions because of a dispute way back then with the Palestinian contingent wandering off into the desert to make their fortunes!!.

They supposedly wandered around for ages in countries such as Syria, Jordan and even as far as iraq until one day they decided that theywould make the trek back to their "homeland". (anyone see a resemblance to a Biblical epic yet?)

Upon returning home they were not entirely welcomed and fractuous fighting broke out which resulted in the home tribe becoming dispersed themselves but they made loadsa money in the process(yep, it's the brothers one?) ....only to be re-instated by a British government who felt proper sorry for them........cue fractuous fighting again!!


It is an easy option to point the finger at

the tendrils of post-colonialism that persist to exert an influence

And yes the Americans, British and  Russians all want to be in the (Power) game, but if they wanted to get along badly enough and co-exist in the region  it is still down to them as communities to decide to do so.

The real evil here, like Northern Ireland, the Balkans and many other nations around the globe is Religion.....as it has been for many thousands of years!!

Take away the Religious differences (and of course the Power that it gives a very few, and very long memories and introverted and backward village mentality of many of these Nations) and you are left with peoples who will seek an alternative, a solution, a compromise and perhaps even a united nation, under one banner, one badge, one affiliation, one truth.....




A Nation that will rise from the tawdry ashes of their past and join together for joint economic wealth and prosperity, a nation that will progress and grow strong in unity, Conquering all other nations around them, a NATION that would be respected as a World Power, building an Empire so vast that none would have seen such an Empire before in the annals of history....and a Nation that would then start to interfere in other Nations business to gain even more Power!!!!


Hallelujah!!, such is the Nature of Man :dribble:  :dribble:  :devil:




Oh well, better leave them to it then

[A Twig]

would an option be to create a Vatican like city state in place of Jerusalem, ruled over by someone by the UN. Then perhaps the communities could live in peace with each other, knowing that although they don't have control/ower, neither does the other side?