DKP hoarding Vs Kit hoarding

[Umbra]

After a couple of discussions recently I thought I'd make a post to see if i'm just falling off my soapbox or if this has happened to others.

Also, as there are rules in place about what set items people can have (4 of tier 1 before you can have tier 2) this becomes more relevant.

Should someone with a tier 2 item be able to take a tier one item of same slot ESPECIALLY if there are people who only have tier 0 of that slot?

a) this reduces the overall raid member effectiveness by keeping someone on bad kit when they could have upgraded.
B) it keeps them one item away from even being allowed to go for the tier 2.

Let us say hypothetically, that Gorion and optical won wrath bracers, and myself and dajo still didn't have might bracers, for example heroism on both.
Even though the uber tank kings have more dkp, should they now be allowed to take the might bracers which are not as good as their current kit, and thus deprive us of a good upgrade?

in numbers: 2 x tier 2 (gori, opti) + 2 x tier 0.5 (me, dajo) = average of 1.25

if they got might bracers, the best set would not change as they would not need to use them, HOWEVER, if we got the might bracers...

2 x tier 2 + 2 x tier 1 = average 1.5

a small increase! you shout?
gib epix! i reply!

if you're gonna stop people getting tier 2 until they have some tier 1, dont let the people who HAVE tier 2 take the tier 1.

purely hypothetical situation of course.

P.S. don't give me the set bonus b0ll0 x, noone would replace the 4 items of tier 2 they have to get the set bonus from full tier 1

[TeaLeaf]

I won't give a lengthy thought out reply, because I haven't thought it through yet, but here is an off the cuff reason why I think you *might* be allowed to take T1 when you have T2.

Netherwind Crown (T2)

Arcanist Crown (T1)

The Arcanist has +10 FR and so when I decided what to use my costly Libram of Resilience for I chose to put it on not my Netherwind Crown but my Arcanist Crown.  Yes I drop some stats, but I get +30 FR from the Arcanist Crown and only +20 FR from the Netherwind.  So when I need maximum FR or want to keep +damage or other stats on other items rather than replacing them with +FR gear I pull out the Arcanist.

TL.

[Umbra]

a valid example, but still, for a difference of 10fr would you stop someone who had tier 0/0.5 from having the arcanist?

Additionally in this case you already had both, so you got to decide on the best application for kit you already had.

Not quite the same as stopping someone getting a fantastic upgrade in order to get your extra 10FR.

if you had magister and kreuz had netherwind, tell me you wouldn't be peeved if he took the arcanist

P.S. wth is a chocolate balloon?

[TeaLeaf]

Actually I had the T1 for 46 hours before I got the T2.  I then decided to get the +20 FR on the Arcanist not the Netherwind.  The extra 10 FR does make a difference to those of us squishies who operate in the 'sub 250 FR' zone

I'm not saying that it would not benefit someone with a Rare or T0.5 set item, but tbh if Kreuz had more DKP than me and he wanted it then I'd be happy that he took it for a good reason.  He put the effort in, so he gets the choice.  All he has to do is use his choice wisely. My turn would come and the DKP system ensures this.

There's a good chance that had I had the T2 headpiece first that I might have taken the T1 anyway as I feel the extra 10FR really does make a difference to me.  I'll never know for sure though as I got the T1 before the T2 and not the other way around.  

Hindsight's a wonderful thing........  :whistle:

TL.

[Bob]

Originally posted by Umbra@Apr 4 2006, 12:54 PM
P.S. don't give me the set bonus b0ll0 x, noone would replace the 4 items of tier 2 they have to get the set bonus from full tier 1

[post=120846]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

As with all other cases concidering items, loot, rules and so on, it is impossible to make one good rule that goes for all ocations.

What you say about set bonuses being b0ll0x, is not just all true.  At the moment I have 6 of the cenarion pieces (missing belt and vestments), and I also have the Stormrage Belt.
Even though I have the SR belt, I will not pass on the Cenarion belt if that should drop and I'm next in line for it.  I do not wanna seem greedy, but I would prefer to have the full Cenarion set bonus, than 7 cenarion and 1 SR...  And also the belt seems like a bloody rare drop, so it's hard to tell how long it will be till next time it drops.  And I also feel that I have earned the right to it.

[Nefertem]

I gotta agree with Umbra here.. I must admit I got a tendency to be greedy from time to time, but I know that if I already had Wrath helmet I wouldn't take Might Helmet even if I had the needed DKP.. That is if someone needs it.. If noone need the Tier 1 piece I would go for it..

I do know what Threb is on about tho.. He only has 1 tier 2, and he would have more use of a Tier 1 at this point.. Now I wouldn't want to flame anyone personally but Gorion for instance already got 5 tier 2 pieces and prolly wouldn't have as much use of a Tier 1 piece, as on as Umbra or Threb..

[Neff]

I have a semi-solution, Discuss it in your channel before looting! The tier 1/2 part has alot of problems thats need to be  solved. an example is Ash passing on the tier 2 head because he doesnt want it as much as Bas/or sunil needed it . And i didnt need nemesis bracers either , thats why i've passed on them.

[Dajo]

Originally posted by Neff@Apr 4 2006, 06:16 PM
I have a semi-solution, Discuss it in your channel before looting!

[post=120911]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

haha you dont wanna know....Their actually was alot of bitching about that in our channel.

[Ragnarh]

My guess is that a set of Wrath bracers drop before we ewen see the Might ones dropp.

I would like to se them go to somone who needs em if it happens.
Mine are in the bank as they dont have anything other then less of the same stats that Wrath have.Tho having a full sett was nice til I found no practical use for it.

Why somone would want them? My guess ist that after hoping for the sett for so long you just want to finish the sett even tho you got better.


As I got the whole sett I don't know , but would hope I would have passed non upgrade ithems down to the ones that need em . It is not like I'm collecting Valor now, ewen with the upppgrade possebilety.



Rules are something I don't particulary like, hoping we don't have to make to manny of them .

[ratatosk]

For me its like Ashjen once said I trade Blues for Epix first, This will benefit the guild most i think. So if i havent missread Umbra, I think that if someone has tier 2 he should pass on tier 1 to one that probably has Blues!

But the Dilemma is that ppl can feel that they have earned the right to claim whatever they like because they have put alot of effort in getting their high DKP. I understand that, so its really hard to make a rule for it! What Neff says is great that u should talk in ur channel before whispering,and dont be to greedy next time its the other way around! And u Spare ML alot of trouble sorting who should get what item!

And for last its real nice to see another player be Happy by getting new gear that they really want!

[Sinap]

I took the might helm a few weeks ago despite having the wrath one, but all the warriors in the raid had wrath and I was the only one to take it

[StrontiumDog]

Sometimes it is worth taking a lesser item if it will hep you get the set and the set bonus, plus seeing as the resistances are differerent per item you sometimes need to swap and change pieces to get the best effect.

[Umbra]

Why somone would want them? My guess ist that after hoping for the sett for so long you just want to finish the sett even tho you got better.

surely this is greed rather than need though.

what i'm saying isn't so much that the item is ENTIRELY worse in eVERY aspect to a piece  you already have, but that, if for one person it is a mighty upgrade, and for you it's merely a 'complete the set of tier one even though I have 4+ x tier2' or 'I only want it for the 10FR' then it's not exactly a greed.

To quote (ish) Gorion from the last raid 'The fire debuff is nothing when you have around 300+FR' so then the FR argument out of the window (i'm on about 210 unbuffed btw) and every other stat is worse.

Thus, is it really such a guild attitude to take it when there is no aspect that is really needed (is the 8x set bonus a need when you have >4 tier 2?) would he REALLY use them to get this set bonus? to be fair? who would take off the 4+ tier 2 items in order to get this bonus?

Just remember This is just a discussion as I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions and taking them into account (Am I the only one?)

[TeaLeaf]

I think the thing we need to remember is that we need an easy rule to apply in practice.  We can't spend all night discussing the potential merits of an upgrade to one person over an upgrade to another.  If we used the upgrade logic we might also find ourselves arguing that a Tier 2 item should go to those with Rare Blues and not those with Tier 1 epics.  We are not at liberty to pick and choose when we apply that logic.

The simple and practical way forward is to do what we do:  spend your DKP when it is your turn and if you want the item.

It's down to the individual how they spend their DKP, if we start assessing the relative merits of an upgrade for one person over the upgrade for the other 5 in class then our fastet MC clearance will become 3 days and not 3 hours.

TL.

[gijs]

I agree with TL.

DKP system is simple en clear. those who have the most DKP (Most time/effort spend) get the item. This doesnt go for Tier sets only but for all items in the DKP raids.
I think we are all wise enough to only roll for items we intent to use.

If you want an equil chance at gear then we should have started RG2 with all new players clean DKP lists and experience. instead we get help from RG1 players who learn us the fastest  way of getting our loot and if during this raid an item drops that one of the RG1 members needed then i would be happy to pass, im happy to have him/her around to help. Eventually you will get your turn when you have the DKP.

until then im happy to wait and learn