Attendance Levels

[StrontiumDog]

I really don't know what has happened recently and plenty of reasons have been put forward to why the attandance is so low.

I have mentioned before about they way my work..well works so i won't bore you again but needless to say the the more days or attempts it takes on an instance the chance of me not being able to see it to completion are raised.

I love raiding with you guys, and I find it great fun and it is frustrating to find out that a raid is cancelled.

I suggested the signup site for 40 man a few threads ago and thought it was a good idea and I still do as you will have prior knowledge of attandace levels instead of waiting in vain for people to log in at invite time.

There is 159 accounts in the guild so more than plently to fill the raids and if people are not attempting to raid or even contacting the officers to explain why then maybe they should be asked officially if they want to continue or want to give up thier slot. In agreement with some of the other guys above who warn about recruiting too may and the resulting over population within the guild I think what would be a distinct possibility.

As for warlocks and AQ20/ZG, I can't speak for others but i have a familiy and a RL and I do like to spend my non-raiding days with them and even if I do play a little wow during the evening I will finish early due to the fact I don't want to be playing until midnight 7 days a week. That said, with no 40 man raiding going on then I would more likely then not be there at the smaller raids as a replacement..

[jantore]

I have just read trough all the posts and im thinking for my self that we are in a position that is not good at the moment.

Yes its exam time atm, and the summer is comming fast. If we wait with doing somthing we might loose ppl that want to raid and progress. For my self i want to raid, but id like to do Nefarius and some bosses in AQ40 before i move to the US.

So if it will come to us suspending raids and not progrss in BWL for months i might change to a guild that is raiding in BWL and AQ40. That would not be as fun as getting neafarius and AQ40 bosses for the first time, but what should a guy do, when he knows that in 2 months he wont be raiding anymore because he is moving across the atlantic.

So officers what ever u guys decide im behind u, but if raiding is suspended i might leave guild if i get into one that i can raid with in BWL and AQ40 for the remaining time im in this time zone.

JT

[Bob]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf+May 12 2006, 10:51 AM-->

QUOTE(TeaLeaf @ May 12 2006, 10:51 AM)

How patient should we be Bob? We've got the majority of the raid waiting in Razegore's room, how many weeks or months do we wait? I hear what you are saying, I don't want to have too many members, but the current situation is untenable.
[/b]

It's ofcourse hard to state exactly for how long one should be patient about this matter.  Now I can only guess (based upon my own situation, and how I know it mostly work on the schools that I know about), but I would assume that if we try to be patient till the end of May (about 2.5 week or so), I think we'll see much brighter days.

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 10:51 AM
I find this one almost totally unacceptable. We have about 60 people ready to raid at the moment on raid nights. Are we saying that we should disappoint 20 in RG2 and make them wait until June to raid again? They are just about to break into Ragnaros and we want to ask them if they'd mind stopping until June?
Would such a stop for RG2 help RG1? I'm not sur eit would - RG would end up being made up of RG1 and some RG2 members and as you know, BWL is much more gear dependant - an full RG1 when 25% of the members are RG2 may not even get past Razegore, let alone Vael!

My thought was definetly not that if we put the two raid groups together for the rest of this month, that RG1 members should get priority.  Either we would have to make it a "even split" (50/50 or so), or perhaps even try to make it consist of a major part of RG2 members.  That could actually be a big benefit for the guild in total, cause that way we as RG1 members could help alot of RG2 people getting more and faster access to more loot and good gear.

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 10:51 AM
Bob, I respect the fun part and when it stops being fun I will stop. But the fun bit for me is the raiding. Fun for me does not include sitting in IF until June doing sod all. AQ20 and ZG would not fill the time for me as we clear them too quickly and I would be locked into a cleared instance most nights.

Raiding is very much the fun part for me as well, don't get me wrong here, but if the "attitude" and feeling in connection with the raiding changes, it can turn out to not being fun at all - and that is something I fear!

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 10:51 AM
Also, please remember that the "major part of the member masses" are them small minority. The large majority are still turning up (75%), so it is the minority that the majority are waiting on. How long should they wait?

What I say here, is just a feeling I have, a loose guess (or whatever you'd like to call it): have you ever though that perhaps, just perhaps, some of those 75% (as you say) that show up perhaps show up just because they are afraid to not show up?  That's the point I tried to make in my previous in conjunction with what Carr0t wrote in his post: "I'd be kinda scared to raid with you guys"
If people start showing up for raids just because they are afraid for not showing, and they don't dare telling that they actually at some point have a RL issue that needs to get a higher priority than WoW - than we have gotten to a point we shouldn't want to be.

There will always be members who can't show up for a raid now and then.  The only thing that makes it so special now, is that it is so many members who have the same reasons at the same time.  It's nothing we can do about that, but be patient.

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 10:51 AM
I remain to be convinced that a wait and see will suit the majority.

There are actually situations where the majority should strive to adjust to and help out the minority, and I think the situation we are in now are one where this is very important. (I'm saying this with a risc of me sounding very subjective right now - I try not to be

[Bob]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 11:16 AM
Just reread my last post and it sounds harsh. It isn;t meant to be, just a strong frustration coming through about our current problems.

As I said, it's devil's advocate for th emost part as we need ot discuss these things.

TL.

[post=126394]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

That's a fair thing TL - somebody got to be the devil's advocate, and I think you do a mighty good job there

[TeaLeaf]

If anyone is really attending raids because they are afriad not to then they need to get their priorities sorted out because raiding clearly is not the fun thing for them it used to be.  

The 'I'm scared to raid with you guys' comes from a L7 who does not yet know about raiding and will probably understand a huge amount more about it when they get to L55.  Anything you don't know can be scary.

A 50/50 split for a single RG1 would not work unless we raided noithing but MC/OL.  BWL cannot be done with an under-specced raid.

I hope 2.5 weeks will see attendance go up - but I am not sure or convinced that it will.  For example, I am pretty sure I can name one class where although we have recruited sufficiently we have been struggling on numbers since March.  Surely exams did not start that early?

I'm struggling to see what the problemn is and thi smakes me feel frustrated - I want to wait and I do not want to wait.  Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many (mainly in Star Trek movies tbh), but in many other cases the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. I'm just not sure which situation we're in right now.

TL.

[Asmoden]

I must admit, i havent had time to read the entire post (page 2) cuz i have to paint my waranda before i have to go to my poker night, and all kinda stuff today/this weekend. (holiday!)

But my idea would be:

Be more strict with the guardian status.
As it is atm, if you are a guardian, you get priority on raids. Also you have to join X raids in a week/month. I would like to see that perhaps we made more people guardian, so they feel more like they have to come, and also an insurance that they can join the raid. I would also suggest that if a guardian logs on while a raid is in progress, and a soldier guardian is on a raid, the guardians gets his place... just like that. I know this ia quite hars, but it will make more people want to be guardian, and then have to join more raids. It will also make sure that the raid is dominated by better geared people, wich is good for our progess. Also guardians not attending the X raids, would be demoted to Defender, and then post if they want to be guardian again. Officers can then take a talk with the person, and they can deside wether he will be ugraded right away, or have to take a little trial period.

I know a lot of guardians right now cant join raids because of exams and so on. Why note make a kind of "freeze" of you guardian status? Tell the guild "i will be to busy to join raids as i use to until 15/8" Fair enough, you account is now freezed, so we wont be expecting you, and you wont be demoted. If you want to join a raid in that period, you join as a defender.

Also i would like to se that there was made a RG2 Guardian status and the same rules apply to there. Other than the part that i would make some of those RG2, who really raid, take the opportunity to be a part of a "hardcore group". It would also make sure that they dedicate themselfs more. Maby even say that if RG1 is missing people, the RG2 Guardians will join before the RG2 Defender. Both because they probably have more experiance, and better gear. And also because we know they are dedicated players who are active during the raid.

I know it sounds hars to demote people just like that, but it is the only way to make sure people actualy attend. And the only way people will take those who always are on and cant raid, seriously.

I think the freeze feature will help most of the people who often are very active, but cant right now, staying happy as they wont be loosing anything, and the guild will know what to expect too.
Im not happy about having to invite more players to the guild, as it will be a problem at some point when those gone now come back. But it might be the only way... I suggest we try sharpening the rules first tho.

Would like some feedback on the idea, and some suggestions. It is something we did once in my old EQ guild, and it worked quite well there for a while..But then agian, that was an entirely different game ;p

-Asmo signing out and going for a drink

[lunares]

Some points you made asmoden are interesting like the not be there for x raids byebye guardian status. The idea of freezing the accounts is basicly the same as the vacation thread. But  say we have 10 ppl who froze their accounts. so we get 10 new guardians to join the raid and after a month the 10 are back then what?
Demoting the ppl who where there to replace the 10 would be a bad thing. Then you get the problem i am a guardian Give me a raid spot.......... (and 50 guardians with 40 spots assuming everybody shows up ofc)
I agree on the part where guardian status is something thats needs to be monitored strict. The freezing system is an interesting idea but what to do when they get back and you have too many guardians?
Another thing is SOG was a social guild (and ofc still is) but lately we focussed on raiding (and i love to raid instances) and that is a bit of change. Some early member dont rly like i guess. Keep that also in mind

Lunares

[Asheera]

According to Guardian rulez u HAVE to attend 2/3 raids a week so if u don't raid w/out any good reason
about the exams i can't bealive u study 24/7, isn't it possible to study in the afternoon and play the evening or study more on another day is it ? is not fair if u won't come for laziness and u tango up the raid for the rest of the RG

about the recuit more ppl last time we did we needed to make a new raid grp to make ppl happy and imo we have enought ppl

regairding AQ/ZG it's not an official raid night so prolly many ppl go for RL , too bad almost all the locks can't join/not interested personaly i can't join raids due to RL

for the sign up system imo it's the best coiche to do atm, when i was in Equanimity we used that system and that was warking rly nice, to avoid angry ppl we could close the sign ups 1 day before the raid and tell/mail the ppl who can't join and give the priority to ppl attend more and give priority in the next raid

and tbh i play wow to raid and i'm rly angry when 1 raid is called due low attendeance

that's my point feel free to agree or not
thx for the time needed to read it

[Bob]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf+May 12 2006, 12:00 PM-->

QUOTE(TeaLeaf @ May 12 2006, 12:00 PM)

For example, I am pretty sure I can name one class where although we have recruited sufficiently we have been struggling on numbers since March. Surely exams did not start that early?
[/b]

I know you (The Officers) can't run around asking everybody what they are doing and why they don't attend, but when there is such a special situation that one class in particular stand out with a very low attendance, wouldn't it perhaps be a good idea to just send all of that class an in-game mail (better that than a PM, since obviously not all are that active on the forums)?  It could be something as simple as this:

Code Select Expand

Hi
We've noticed that there has been a very low attendance from the [I]<insert class name here>[/I] class lately, and we would like to figure out why. Are there any special reason why you haven't attended as much as required? And will there be long untill you can start raiding regulary againJust a thought though

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 12:00 PM
Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many (mainly in Star Trek movies tbh)

Hehe, good punch line TL :lol:

[Bob]

Originally posted by Asheera@May 12 2006, 01:00 PM
about the exams i can't bealive u study 24/7, isn't it possible to study in the afternoon and play the evening or study more on another day is it

That statement almost pissed me of a bit - I've had much studying already this week, which ended in (one of many) my exam earlier today, and because of that I'm quite exhausted, and a bit more hot-tempered than usual.  Pleas excuse me for this

What you get out of school mostly depends on what you put into it.  I want to get much out of school, and thus I spend quite much time with it.  The week before last week I was at school almost every day for at least 12-15 hours.  It's obvious that that doesn't leave much room for raiding.  It doesn't really leave much room for anything else at all, but to sleep :huh:
Despite how much I don't want it to be that way, it's not much I can do about it.

[Snowstormer]

I didnt read all of the replies just yet, i'll do that later, but: My opinion stays in either trying to find out what happened to those who no longer turn up, or just get people to replace em..more people. but NOT dtop raiding alltogether.

Or, update the status of people in rg1..People have said they can attend 2/3 nights, but the situation might have changed for some people. Like, a thread in each classforum where you fill a same kind of form as when you fill when you aplly to sog. hmm me and my weird ideas  :huh:

[Menedil]

bob, about people raiding only because therye scared not to- bollocks.

guardians commit to showing up 2/3 of the raids per week. this is not happening.

i'd suggest a "culling" of thsoe guardians who arent making their commitment to RG1, and upgrade/recruit replacements.

signups might work, the only thing you might call a problem with the 20 man signups is oversubscription. if we get oversubscribed for RG1... well... it'll be a happy day.

[Sebas]

--Subscribing for raids.
I find this a very good idea, you know who will be present and make it so that you can retreat out if it till +/- 2 hours before the start. You know what you are dealing with and if only 20 people enlisted themselves you wont be suprised if there is no raid.

--Guardian status.
The losing of  this status should be made easier, or make them a "frozen" Guardian if they weren't in x raids. Than fill those spots up with some good geared players from RG2 but do not promote them because if those Guardians come back, you are stuck with two times as many people. And if you dont increase your attendance for a long time, its just bye-bye Guardian, hello Defender/Soldier.

Originally posted by Threbrilith@May 12 2006, 11:06 AM

I've been an SOG member (and a proud one too, as it says in my signature) for 15 months now. The reason why I'm proud of being a member of this magnificent guild, is what I like to call the SOG spirit. It's not a thing it's easy to put exact words on, but the main thing - which has always been like a red line in all that SOG has done - is that it's about having fun. It still is fun, I'm not saying that, but sometimes lately it may seem like the "fun" part has been given a major "downgrade".

[post=126376]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

This is the exact problem which was growing in my former guild. I dont know but I have the idea that it's just the game, WoW gets boring because there is only a next instance in difficulty and not a parallel one. But we can't do much about it, that's Blizz it's big mistake.

[Neff]

When i joined sog, i didnt know shit about Wow, or guilds or f'kin big purple dragons.

Then i quit, came back as a lock after, 30 days or something? Then i suddenly thought, wow we are actually raiding now, so i started lvling Neff, and suddenly i got lust for more, downing more bosses and getting the good feeling of it.

I think its very much the same with other guildies, i love sog for the ppl thats in it, and the mad rambling in /gchat . And the fact that we do very good in end game instances too

[Deadlyspirit]

Let me start with saying that I am VERY glad this post has come up now.

Things I am pissed over atm is ofc as you say the att. is very low atm and it is not good that to many RG2 ppl help in BWL becouse of the gear we have atm. And RG1 shoud be able to handle that out them self, as RG2 have to get on there own feets in MC very soon and show we dont need the RG1 help. Not ment that we dont appicieate the help we have gotten and still gets.

I think the option 2 is the best solution and then as luna says get a few more in of the classes that allways are needed.

Another thing that is really bugging me atm, is that RG1 loose ppl and then starts to take ppl from RG2 up to them and that way get us a few steps back again on gear and exp.

And IMO RG2 shoud have somekind of other status then defender in my eyes. as I dont really see the fun in ppl can come if they want, but you cant make sure ppl want unless you get some att. up on RG2 aswell. and in that was get a more specific group of ppl getting there gear up and go on. And as you sayed your self RG2 are at raggi atm and if we cant make sure ppl come to RG2 raids, I dont really know if this will ever get on going for RG2. And as I see it, it is only 2 days a week for like 5 hours you guys need to be on, all the other days dont matter, just be there at the official raids.

So that will make it 10 hours of WOW play a week out of 168 hours. That shoud be posible for ppl.

By this, I dont thing I am the only one in RG2 that have intention on going on to highere and hardere instances then MC and get some even better loot.