The Standard maps ... PCS or not?

smilodon · July 30, 2003, 04:55:33 PM

Isn't it the very idea of PCS that almost guarantees hostages will never get saved on maps like Italy?

As the T's are required to guard the Hostages closely it would only be after they had all been killed that the CT's could reach their objective. Occasionally one T may be alive but he's usually ducked outside and the CT's would never make it to the rsecue point without meeting him (or her :!: ) at some point on the map.

In non PCS play there's a greater chance that hostages will be saved as T's roam all over the map and CT's could slip by them with their hostages.

That being said the PCS objective of a map like Italy is for the CT's to kill all the T's. This is no mean feat against a focused T squad. CT's would have to plan a co-ordinated attack with precise timing and use of smoke and flash grenades just to get to the house alive. So I would argue that Italy etc are playable as PCs maps if everyone understands that objectives are to eliminate the opposition rather than resue the hostages.

A Twig · July 30, 2003, 05:03:48 PM

It is perfectly possible to steal the hossies when there are one or two Ts up by the exit to the wall paper rooms, I myself have managed this once or twice. Therefore, both objectives are equally valid, as they always have been in any form of CS, and so I think I've forgotten what I was leading up to now.

Oh yeah, so to Smilo's last point, no...

smilodon · July 30, 2003, 05:04:58 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yes

Dr Sadako · July 30, 2003, 05:08:11 PM

QuoteThat being said the PCS objective of a map like Italy is for the CT's to kill all the T's. This is no mean feat against a focused T squad. CT's would have to plan a co-ordinated attack with precise timing and use of smoke and flash grenades just to get to the house alive. So I would argue that Italy etc are playable as PCs maps if everyone understands that objectives are to eliminate the opposition rather than resue the hostages.

That being said the PCS objective of a map like Inferno is for the T's to kill all the CT's. This is no mean feat against a focused CT squad. T's would have to plan a co-ordinated attack with precise timing and use of smoke and flash grenades just to get to the bombspot alive. So I would argue that Inferno etc are playable as PCS maps if everyone understands that objectives are to eliminate the opposition rather than to plant the bomb.
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In both cases ... NO!

A Twig · July 30, 2003, 05:09:12 PM

Thankyou Sadako, so much more eloquently put and reasoned than my reply!

smilodon · July 30, 2003, 05:10:26 PM

Aren't we all agreeing on the same thing? Some maps played in a PCS stylee have objectives other than rescue or plant ?

ChimpBoy · July 30, 2003, 06:55:38 PM

QuoteAren't we all agreeing on the same thing? Some maps played in a PCS stylee have objectives other than rescue or plant ?

Don't think so matey - primary objectives are never about killing the opposition on a de_ or cs_ map. Only exceptions would be as_ or es_ maps, but we don't play them.

Whether it's pcs or not shouldn't make any difference

smilodon · July 30, 2003, 07:51:35 PM

Ah so we disagree. Right well my point still stands then.

1. By the very nature of PCS play some maps have to primarily be about enemy destruction.

2. PCS rules on Italy for example almost negate the possibility of rescuing hostages without first illiminating the T force.

3. There will be occassions when hostages are rescued with T's still alive on the map, but that will be unlikely.

4. Non PCS play on a map like Italy makes it more likely, rather than less likely, that hostages will be rescued, as T's will roam across the map (through the cellar, market and apartment) making it possible for the CT's to reach the house and sneak back with the hostages in tow.

5. Therefore a successful CT force will be attempting to illiminate the T's, rather than JUST rescue hostages, in PCS play.

6. This is true of other CS_ maps as well.

7. CS_ maps therefore can still be good PCS maps even though the primary objectives cannot always be met.

8. Either way Rio sucks big

The End

OldBloke · July 30, 2003, 08:20:49 PM

The question of PCS and CS maps has been debated at length in the past. The way I like to look at it is that if the Ts are defending the hossies down to the last man who is then subsequently killed then the hostages *have* been rescued. We just didn't see it happen.

ChimpBoy · July 30, 2003, 08:26:19 PM

Smilo what you say is true in that it is far more likely for maps like italy to turn into scalp-fests with pcs rules, but nevertheless you should be looking to rescue the hossies on this map.

I've seen a number of occassions on italy in the last week where 2/3 cts started moving hossies back to rescue point. Whether they kill the last couple of Ts is inconsequential. As long as the CTs in this situation are practicing due diligence and covering the angles of possible attack then whats the problem?

If however they get to the hossies, and then abandon hossies to go scalping then they shouldn't be on MH :x

QuoteThat being said the PCS objective of a map like Italy is for the CT's to kill all the T's

Attitudes like this aren't in the spirit of an objective based game like CS, whether it's PCS or not. Shame on you :x

Rio I think is a great map - It's just that you very rarely see a decent CT team organise themselves. Hardly ever seen many back door rushes, front door rushes, or CTs providing covering fire so that guys could get in bottom floor. It's not a complex map really, especially with limits and I always look forward to it on the rotation, as CT or T

smilodon · July 30, 2003, 09:19:58 PM

You're missing my point.

In order to rescue hostages on Italy CT's must get to them.

T's will be observing PCS rules and will be close to the hostages (i.e. in the house or on the area outside).

In order to reach the Hostages the CT's will have to engage the T's as they approach or enter the house.

Only upon resolution of the assault can CT's effectively rescue the hostages.

To resolve the assault in their favour, CT's will have to eliminate the T's.

Thus the round ends in the assumption that with all the T's dead the objective "Save the Hostages" has been met.

A CT team that accepts the fact that in order to win the round they are going to have to kill the T force is going to succeed more often than a CT force that only attempts to rescue the hostages.

An example would be that as a CT, even though I had reached the lower room in Italy, I would attempt to clear the top room before I moved hostages out. Even if I headed to the rescue point while team mates cleared the upper floor it's extremely unlikely that I would make it home before the top floor battle was resolved. Assuming the T's killed my team mates I would then have to re-take the house solo. Better to join my team-mates in the top floor assault and add to the chances of taking out the remaining T's than to disappear with two hostages and just earn a bit of cash.

PCS simulates a real world situation. I would suggest that a real SWAT team, faced with the same scenario, would plan to take down the entire Terrorist force prior to moving the hostages out.

This is the opposite to Office which, due to it's design, allows for hostage rescue to be achieved more easily than on Italy.

On Office and Shogun it is acceptable to snatch hostages and break for the rescue points.

Therefore I would suggest that the true PCS style is to accept the layout designs of the Italy map and plan an assault that recognises those designs.

Further to blindly rescue hostages without due consideration for the nature of the map being played or the state of play is unrealisitic and not in the PCS style.

JonnyAppleSeed · July 31, 2003, 12:52:02 AM

Just to be the devils advocate.........is it the maps that are not pcs or are we not playing that map in a pcs way?

I find the maps a bit like Pizza....you get good one's and better one's

In theory it should not matter what the map is. It should still be possible to play it in a pcs (team) way
By using the map limits its possible to adjust the bias slightly to even up the map....or make it more interesting

The trick is to find the best maps that work for pcs.....but to tell the truth I think the maps are what a team makes of them.....

So i say "yes all maps are pcs but some are better than others"

smilodon · July 31, 2003, 01:07:30 AM

I'd go further and say it's irrelevant if the map allows effective hostage rescue or not.

Italy again is a great example. As we've discussed, and I hope I've proved, it's unlikely (although not impossible) to sucessfully rescue hostages with T's still alive on the map. Therefore to win CT's must assume that they will have to kill all the T's. Once this has been realised then it's quite possible to act in a PCS manner.

To be honest on such a T biased map it's hard to see how the CT's could win without working as a team. Tonight showed this clearly. It was only by planning attacks and working as a team that the CT's won any rounds at all. In fact by playing so tight they did very well against us.

Does it honestly matter if a map makes it hard to achieve hostage rescue and forces the goal to become enemy neutralisation? I'd argue not. It's about how you play the game not what the goals are. If it allows tactical play and is fun then it works for me.

Off to bed

Dr Sadako · July 31, 2003, 07:58:39 AM

QuoteI'd go further and say it's irrelevant if the map allows effective hostage rescue or not.

Italy again is a great example. As we've discussed, and I hope I've proved, it's unlikely (although not impossible) to sucessfully rescue hostages with T's still alive on the map. Therefore to win CT's must assume that they will have to kill all the T's. Once this has been realised then it's quite possible to act in a PCS manner.

If the CTs should disregard saving the hostages and just go for the kills then there is no need to approach the house. The Ts understand that they are being sniped out goes into hiding within the house. CTs finish them off by throwing in HEs and then spamming all the walls. Job done. 100% dead Ts, 100% dead hostages, CTs win. And they live happily ever after ...

Hmm .... next round Ts realise that the CTs don't care about the hostages. Ts then move all over the map as they don't need to focus on their objective either. "Hey" shouted one of the Ts. "Let's go down to the market and cap some CTs". Brilliant idea said the others and they all rushed. In announcement voice: Welcome to dMw public hub ... :roll:

Quote2. What is objective oriented teamplay?
Short answer? Teamplay is when you work as a TEAM to complete your objectives. Your focus should be completing your objective with as little loss of life on your team as possible. Your priority should be helping your teammates first, objective second, and taking out the enemy last.

smilodon · July 31, 2003, 09:34:42 AM

Absolutely agree. Apart from costing the CT team a fortune, killing the hostages is far from being in the PCS spirit.

The objective is always to rescue hostages and therefore ensure their survival. In order to successfully achieve that goal the CT's have to perform certain functions.

First they have to approach the house while sustaining minimum casualties. This might mean getting a fair way up the long tunnel, or making it to the safe zone under the bridge by the cellar entrance or through the apartment and up to the corner. It could also be assisted by effective long distance sniping.

Secondly they would have to assault the house and make it to the relative safety of the walls of the house. Finally they would enter the house via the door or window and deal with any remaining T's.

Thirdly once the house was clear they would be free to collect hostages and escape.

The heart of my point is that realistically by the time they completed these three steps all the T's would probably be dead. No one is on a wild solo scalp hunt. Nor do they forget the hostages and their ultimate goal of saving them. It's just that as a natural consequence of the design of Italy T elimination is almost mandatory in order to resue the hostages.

The CT team that realised the nature/limitation of the Italy map and developes tactics accordingly is going to be more succesful than one that doesn't. Part of those tactics would indeed be touching hostages and getting them back to the rescue point if the oportunity arose. I just argue that that oportunity is hardly ever going to happen.