Ragnaros - DEFEATED 20/09/2011

[Whitey]

P2 group position (seed phase) as default should be as far forward as possible (right on the edge of the lava) We may need to move it back if we get fire but it should prevent us getting split up

I think the position we used yesterday was better than right at the front. The reason being, it is just a few steps either way from middle to inside flame positions.  When we used the up front stack position it took us too long to get out and ended up dead to the flames.

[TeaLeaf]

Aye, I preferred being a little back from the front for the same reason.  If we're at the front and we get a front engulfing flame then people die before they 'back' out.  I think standing somewhere around the boundary between a front & mid engulfing is best.

What I was not too happy with last night was the second seed phase which coincides with an engulfing.  I'm thinking about how we handle that at the moment and will post back once I have enough caffeine in my system to kick-start my brain.

What was horrible last night was the number of tries & BRs we had to use during P1.   We should not be losing *anyone* during P1, there's no excuse at this stage when we've had something like 80 tries.   We need to take responsibility and stop delivering the fails, if we don't then a Ragnaros kill is a long way off.

Try #:
1 - AOE Nova - people - wrong add targeted
2 - Incorrect positioning of seed spawns led to people getting raped by little adds
3 - AOE Nova - people - wrong add targeted
4 - Both MT healers healed same tank, the other one died.  Then we lost someone else to Lava Wave
5 - MT died due to healer confusion, people bounced into traps dying to fall damage
6 - Lost someone to Lava Wave
7 - Lost someone to Lava Wave
8 - AOE Nova (TL DC'd)
9 - Lost MT to Trap & Melee, then lost someone to Lava Wave
10 - Someone bounced into trap and died to fall damage
11 - Lost someone to Lava Wave

Way too many avoidable deaths and uses of BR in there and this is something we *have* to tighten up on if we expect to both get Ragnaros down soon and to progress with any speed at all in Heroic modes.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

As long as we know to to run in the same direction to gp for small adds ... The fact we are at the front means that if flames are landing on us we only have one choice and thats run back. Agree not too far forward

[Slush]

Really sorry about my connection losses tonight, will have it fixed tomorrow.

[TeaLeaf]

Nps Slush had a few DCs myself thanks to my ISP (also a dog!).

Last night was frustrating.  We've had over 70 pulls on Ragnaros now and we ought to be at the stage of seeing many P3 tries but we're still struggling to see P2 so that we can learn the latter stages of the fight.  Unfortunately last night we spent 2 hours forgetting everything we had learnt in the previous 50 pulls and therefore failed to get into P2 until the final hour of the raid.  It would be simpler to just raid that single hour and not turn up for the first 2 hours which were wasted.   We raid a limited number of hours each week and we really do need to maximise the effectiveness of our invested time.   We *have* to stop the personal errors, it's killing us, literally.

When we did get into P2 again we discovered new challenges but also solved them really quickly.   All we need to do now is get back into the fight to test out these solutions and learn P2.5.

What we learnt:
P1 should be on farm(!!!)

P1.5 Sons go down well on left or right hammer, we need real care on Middle hammer - and damn we need to remember which add is ours as we missed too many last night.  Don't rely on where someone else is stood, learn your own add positioning so that they can space off you!

P2 After Sons killed return to Son spawn positioning (to maintain good spread prior to Seed spawns), then collapse to middle (closer to front) alongside the boundary between a Front Engulfing and a Middle Engulfing.  
When seed adds down G1 goes left, G2 goes right (yeah I know it was the other way around but G1 left makes more logical sense in the long run) (RLs sort groups to aid this split) - use the 'corners' on the curved line to provide spacing (which gives 6+ yds) and this will mean 2 standing in the Front Engulfing zone, 1 on the boundary and 2 in the Middle Engulfing zone (ie one group each side).  
When Engulfing comes the ones stood in Engulfing slide behind the others on that side, those without shuffle a couple of yards forward to aid spacing.
When Seeds spawn we all collapse to mid again, moving forward again as Engulfing allows.
Hammer - if we get a Hammer on us when we are collapsed we simply move forward towards Ragnaros as the Lava Waves never travel towards him.  Post Hammer we select group on the Left of the scorched ground from the Hammer.
Rinse & repeat.


This should see us into P2.5, there is nothing else to surprise us in P1, P1.5 or P2.  We need to focus on doing what we can already do to give us that chance this reset.

[TeaLeaf]

I think we're going about Middle hammer the wrong way.  We are reliable on Left & Right hammer, but we should switch middle hammer to a collaberative approach.  If we stun say 7 & 8 (tank side), and 1 & 2 (melee side) then we get 2 dps on both 3, 4, 5 & 6 (I'm counting healers as 1 dps).  These will drop like a stone and we can then double up on the last 2 using knockbacks to provide any additional needed time.  

Even better might be to ignore stun 5, 6, 7 & 8 and this way we get all Sons coming into the same knockback or Holy Wrath.

We could evolve this start for Left & Right hammers too.  We could stun 7 & 8 (usually Jes' targets) then all dps them after.  It would allow Jes to double up on other targets initially.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

Im soooo needing a picture of the positions :blink:

[Twyst]

Im soooo needing a picture of the positions :blink:

Seconded!

[Azunai]

Okay, I went to draw out where the sons would actually spawn using a screenshot of the room I found on the web. I went and watched the Tankspot 25-man Rag video for the exact positions so I could mark them up, and then I noticed something...

So far we (or at least I) have been operating on the assumption that the positions the sons spawn in is exactly the same, regardless of where the hammer is going to land, namely 4 on one side of the room, 4 on the other. This is actually not how it is! I'm suprised we (or I) didn't notice this yet!

If you look at the video http://www.youtube.com/user/ZAMOfficial#p/c/ED9E6ED039007619 at 03:52 (pause it there) you can see quite clearly that there are 5 beams on the left side of the room, and 3 on the right. The hammer is going to land on the right. At first I figured it may be a 25-man thing, so I looked up 10man kill videos. I found a few where hammer hits left, right, and one where it hits in the middle too. The sons positions differ depending on where the hammer is going to land, and this is probably why we've had mix-ups with who has which son. It's not as simple as symmetry after all!


So, picture time (ignore the light blue stuff with the arrows in the middle, it was from the original screenshot which was the best I could find):

Hammer hits Left: 3 adds on the left side of the room, 5 on the right.
Sons 1 - 2 - 3 are Close
Sons 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 are Far




Hammer hits Right: 5 adds on the left side of the room, 3 on the right.
Sons 6 - 7 - 8 are Close
Sons 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 are Far




Hammer hits Middle: 4 adds on the left side of the room, 4 on the right.
I'm not 100%, but I'm tempted to say all sons are at Medium Distance




Something we can learn from these positions is that 1 - 2 - 7- 8 are always in the same position. It's 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 that 'lean' left or right depending on where the hammer is going to land.



EDIT: An alternative way to look at it is this. Depending on if you're good with numbers or shapes this may or may not make it more complex for you. :narnar:  

[TeaLeaf]

Sorry to spoil the artwork, but it's i's 4 either side not 3 + 5.

[Slush]

Sorry to spoil the artwork, but it's i's 4 either side not 3 + 5.

No, you didnt read the post. Just checked a vid aswell. Will check more.
It may appear as.. Torgen has figured out why we countiniously (spellcheck plz) has wiped on this.

We always had problems with this: Counting errors. This has to be why (3:52)

[Whitey]

Sorry to spoil the artwork, but it's i's 4 either side not 3 + 5.

I just watched a 10 man version of the fight and torgens artwork is the same positioning.
Also see this image used by another guild to set assignments. http://www.loweredexpectations.net/images/rag.png
 [ATTACH=CONFIG]853[/ATTACH]

I hadn't noticed the 5/3 but I'm usually stuck on or near the outside for left and right.

[Twyst]

Also see this image used by another guild to set assignments. http://www.loweredexpectations.net/images/rag.png
 [ATTACH=CONFIG]853[/ATTACH]

Do we know the classes of the names so we can match their class formation?

[Azunai]

I'm flattered you guys call it artwork :narnar:

I'm guessing Unika is Finnish for Hammer. As for their classes, I reckon we can't really 1:1 something like that but should find something that works for us.

[TeaLeaf]

No, you didnt read the post. Just checked a vid aswell. Will check more.
It may appear as.. Torgen has figured out why we countiniously (spellcheck plz) has wiped on this.

We always had problems with this: Counting errors. This has to be why (3:52)

Bugger me, I just re-checked the Tankspot video which I have in HD on my HDD and you're right.  Bugger again.  And bugger.  How on earth did I make such a stupid error.  Sorry guys - get a RL who can count next time, I feel like an idiot.  How the hell did we not notice this before (and still reliably handle left & right hammers)?  

:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: