Ventrilo or Teamspeak

[TeaLeaf]

Ventrilo or Teamspeak have been around for a while and are an accepted part of online gaming but something we have shied away from in the past due to our commitment to TCS.

What I want to ask folks is whether we should consider using Ventrilo or Teamspeak for Delta matches only where the commitment is higher and the distance from TCS greater?  

I was prompted to think about this during last night's match when there were a couple of occasions where every dead dMw member saw the remaining member of the oppo, but the sole 'live' dMw member did not.  We happened to win one of those two rounds, but lost the other, but as  a single round is a 2 round swing in the final score then we lost out on 2 rounds in effect by not winning the other one too.  As most leagues/ladders also score on the margin of victory we also lose out in the points per match stakes.

I find that there is usually a round or two each match where this would have been really helpful, sometimes many more (depending on who is playing), but what are your views?

TL.

[smite]

I don't want to sound Blunt with this but im afraid it will.

It is Cheating in my eyes and nothing more.

If we are all dead and telling the live member where they are or assisting them that is cheating.

My 2 shillings.

[Squonk]

It is Cheating in my eyes and nothing more.

I agree

[TeaLeaf]

I can fully understand that in TCS.  

the following is deliberately devil's advocate, no personal slurs intended!

But is that a stance you are happy to take for Delta, given that other teams will be using it against you?  And if the rules say it is allowed then why is it cheating?  It may be 'not want you would prefer' but that doesn't make it cheating if it is allowed in the rules.  To a certain extent the debate expands to then say 'why is someone in an ED match who goes frag-hunting' not called a cheater?  After all, they were breaking TCS rules?

So, I'll ask the question again: for Delta matches where you are not playing TCS (you are playing to the same league rules as everyone else, not to the TCS rules) is Ventrilo or Teamspeak something that we should consider?

I think we need to debate this well - and we need to be careful that if we do rush for the best seat at the Ventrilo/Teamspeak execution that we don't inadvertently trip over our possibly misguided self-righteousness.

Debate.........

TL.

[Squonk]

As I dont play delta matches any more (because they are played on a wednesday) ill leave it up to those that do

But imo
I consider it cheating as it provides you with information about others in the game that you wouldnt normally know. i just feel its wrong!
what is the diffrence between this and say a wall hack where you can see through walls?
for example
iam playing, iam the last man we are using a 3rd party vc ,I dont see the enemy run behind the box on my left..my dead team m8s did and tell me he's there i creep round and kill him...or i put a wall hack on and look through the box and see him. imo no diffrence.

I wasnt thinking tcs when i agreed with smite its just an unfair advantage thats not in the sprit of a game

[smite]

I really don't feel compfortable with dmw using it.

Just because someone else uses and are allowed to doesn't make it right.

From a personal point of view i just can't see how it isn't cheating and will not use it in CS.

We could do with a few more peeps putting there views in... this is a little one sided atm.

[OldBloke]

I'm thinking ....

[Dr Sadako]

First of all I just want to say that all matches still have forced chase cam 2, which hinders any extended viewing. The only thing you can see as dead is what the living players in your own team see. The difference with using e.g. teamspeak is that you could get more information from the dead people where they were shot and what guns the enemy had etc.

If we look at the rules it is ok to use TS or V. So what it all boils down to is morals. What do you consider to be right to do? What is ok to do to get an advantage? Is it ok to change skins to get an edge? Using TS or V to deliver more info to your team? Morals, where do you draw the line?

What we also need to consider is: it is a game and the league have set these rules. The style of the league is not realism as TS and V is allowed. So if we ignore that it isn't right because it is unrealistic for a dead player talking to a living player is there any other argument against using it?

I don't think this is an easy question to answer. We should discuss it further before we decide to go either way.

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by squonk@Sep 22 2004, 06:15 PM
But imo
I consider it cheating as it provides you with information about others in the game that you wouldnt normally know. i just feel its wrong!

That's the whole point.  Usually they *do know* as they already use V/TS.  

It is not a case of should we do something different - it is a case of should we do the same as they are doing according to league rules for a league we are already in?

Hence the question.

Smite, I hear what you're saying bud, but I asked the question not for TCS but for Delta.  If we want Delta to be competitive do we choose to use it?  Maybe yes, maybe no, I just want a good debate about it and then to reach a conclusion.

TL.

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by squonk@Sep 22 2004, 06:15 PM
I wasnt thinking tcs when i agreed with smite its just an unfair advantage thats not in the sprit of a game

....but it is legislated for specifically within league rules and our opponents use it.

You're right, it is an advantage and we are currently the ones at a disadvantage.

So what should we do?

TL.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

It’s a good question and I can fully understand the views of anyone either way
Is it better to play in our squeaky clean style or use something to give us a little more advantage.

For me I enjoy knowing that when we win its through skill and teamwork

But………

Putting the foot on the other boot. We *are* squeaky clean but if you look close you find players already use a lot of little things to give an advantage from a default set-up, buy scripts/quick wep changes/quick scopes/rate settings/skins/x-hairs/movement binds and many more all allowed under the rules of the competition. Would a voice program be a step too far?

Looking at it from a competition point of view
If it’s allowed in the rules then you can use it. Just how good would sprinter be if he thought using running spikes was an unfair advantage?
If ED says its ok then why handicap our team?

Looking from a pure point of view
Dead Men Don’t Talk

I think I am 60% for it at the mo ….but just for Delta. At least until I can understand just how big an advantage it is or is not  
 :ph34r:

[Dr Sadako]

Originally posted by JonnyAppleSeed@Sep 23 2004, 05:23 AM
At least until I can understand just how big an advantage it is or is not  
 :ph34r:

I think that we should try it on one of our practices just to see if it really is such a big advantage. In the last Delta match we had 2 occations where the dead could have helped out, which I consider to be rather little.

I think we need to consider if there is any hassle with setting it up and getting all delta to use it. What is good with the standard VC is that it always works. TS/V maybe is equally easy to use, I dont know. I think we need to consider some trouble though.

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by Sadako@Sep 23 2004, 08:05 AM
In the last Delta match we had 2 occations where the dead could have helped out, which I consider to be rather little.

2 rounds is a 4 round swing on the final score.

It's the difference between winning 22-2 and winning 24-0 - that's a 4 round swing when the points for the win are calculated!  I'd say that was significant - a 4 round swing is 17% of the total rounds you can possibly score in a match!

TL.

[Dr Sadako]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf+Sep 23 2004, 08:51 AM-->

[OldBloke]

Still thinking but ...

Would the additional 'chatter' actually hinder rather than help? I like to listen intently when I play - keeping my own voice input to a minimum after a round has started. An example where I often get annoyed with my teammates is when playing as CT on Inferno. I often take 'new route', trying to get up and into the corridor to be able to hear the oppo on a rush. If it's quiet enough, I can hear the first T mounting the stairs at the far end of the corridor prompting me to throw my HE and call the rush. If there's too much chatter going on then my first warning is a T or his HE/FB coming into sight. The chatter referred to is often relevant but intrusive all the same.

Also, if I'm dead and calling the plays then I will do so even though we may have a 'live' player. This could be a distraction.