Is it fair?

[Keltor]

I understand how people feel when they think they are on top of DKP for their class, saving it for a long while and someone else does 1 or 2 BWL runs and overtakes. Yes it is true that if you miss out on loot, you wil aquire it some other day and should feel happy for your raidmate for winning it not to mention RG2's progress with MC has been much faster than when RG1 first started. But to reward people who have put more time and effort?...I'm not too sure about this. For example:

Player A does MC for 30hours.
Player B does MC for 10hours and BWL for 15hours
Player B would have more DKP with same or little more effort while spending a lot less time because the DKP ratio for BWL is much higher than MC.

Perhaps it would be best to do a rotate between players in a class so that the same player does not go in everytime RG1 is in need. A more complicated invite system but some would agree more fair.

I'm just here to answer the topic title "Is it fair?" (concluded that it is slightly a little unfair) and personally, don't give a damn on how long it takes for me to get my stuff. But getting my Zandalar chestpiece now would be very nice! That is all  

[Nefrion]

I have read your post over and over again Neff.. Cant see why you quoted me. Did I critisize any of the officers in my post? My English isnt perfect but in my language "express your opinions" is not equal to "discredit officers".

And thank you for letting me know that I should be honored to be in a guild with you.

[Greatdanes]

Hmm - this topic was meant to make attention to the fact at there is more ppl end needed from RG2 who wants to help out RG1 in BWL and I did think all should have the opportunity to get a chance on that.

As the invite system works today it is a matter of who got the best internet connection and the lowers lag at moment the invite goes out so they can see the invite in the chat windows first and push the “enter” button. I myself have tried that and when I see the message it was to later already.

I am not complaint over I not get invites to raid with RG1 because I have got my part of it but over the system used because it does for me seems not to be fair for all.

But when I read the different reply’s in this topic I get scared over some of the answers here. For example I have read in other topic on this forum at the officers want us to come with all kind of issue here on forum (or on TS) so we can have discussion about it and so we can sort it out in some way.
In this topic there is a comment who says “deal with it, or stop whining” that’s in my eyes a fin way telling me/us not to discuss this or anything else where you don’t agree with the majority and don’t tell us that, just keep it to you self.
I find that comment not to be in the spirit of what I did read somewhere else on this forum.

I hope this forum is meant to be a place where everybody can write their opinion and get some sober reply’s to it, even if the opinion is against the majority of ppl.

[Sinap]

Fully agree with Neff and Vargens posts, its dkp for gods sake..... Teni said a few posts ago, it took him 2 months or more to get one MC epic, and a further couple of months to get his 3 piece bonus. Im guessing atg the rate of progression of RG2 members, as a result of being aided by RG1 and the officers, you all have a lot more in a very short space of time. You'll all have the items soon enough at the rate you are going, so why complain about 50 dkp or how ever much it is. Its all about the new boss kills, and working at reaching new goals, the loot is just the bonus. I remember RG1's frist Ragnaros kill, we havd been trying for months on end, some people left the guild because we couldn't do it, but the majority stuck with it, and kept trying and trying. There were arguements over it, people shouted at each other, but when he finally went down early this year, it was great to know that you've finally killed what we had been working towards for the last half a year when MC started. Thats better than the loot itself, so give the officers a break, I can't imagine all the stuff they have to do, because at the end of the day, you'll get the item eventually.

[Neff]

And thank you for letting me know that I should be honored to be in a guild with you.

Well, thats one way of slamming it in my face, i just meant that when you get an opurtinity to raid with the people _I_ raid with, i'd be mad if i got that opurtinity  taken away. I

I havent been able to raid for almost 3 weeks now, i've tried but i cant raid before next weekend, or maybe even this sunday!
There will always be someone who has more dkp than you, you may have more at one time but you wont be on top all the time, but you will get the item at the end of the day.

Imagine when sog first started raiding? it was a 35-5 Danu/sog ratio, and i think teni got hte first epic in sog,(From mc) wich was LB bracers or something? well it doesnt matter.
The point is, then it wasnt "ezmode" killing 6-7 bosses at 1 night. It wasnt even that when i started raiding, was pretty much alike, but "we didnt mind".
I dont know if its the same with you, but after some raiding its 1stkills>loot . If i wanted loot i'd accept thantors "invite" and join anything.

Im not trying to preach or learn you something, im just  a shitkid afterall, just think over  it, some of the officers has wifes,kids or Gf's even RL's! But still they use x amounts of hours making this the guild it is.

~

[JanuZ]

Originally posted by Greatdanes@May 20 2006, 10:14 AM
Hmm - this topic was meant to make attention to the fact at there is more ppl end needed from RG2 who wants to help out RG1 in BWL and I did think all should have the opportunity to get a chance on that.

As the invite system works today it is a matter of who got the best internet connection and the lowers lag at moment the invite goes out so they can see the invite in the chat windows first and push the “enter” button. I myself have tried that and when I see the message it was to later already.

I am not complaint over I not get invites to raid with RG1 because I have got my part of it but over the system used because it does for me seems not to be fair for all.

Well the problem is that you can't really change the invite system without making an advanced rotation system that will most likly never work because of unknow attendance of people. If you have online Sign ups it is basicly who was fastest 2days before the raid instead of at the raid night. would it be fair for a person that can be online on raid night but not on the day the signups come up? Now i haven't watched the invites for RG1 really but only change i can see is for them to ask for specific classes when inviting RG2 so that there is a bigger chance for those in the needed class at the moment to get an invite. Another way would be for the officers to pick out a random RG2 member and invite him but that could soon get into favoritizing some persons.

But the DKP system and invite system has been complained about since the start, The dkp system has never been changed and the invite system has been changed at least 4times but there will always be complaints about those things and the people that have been here for a long time realise this. And it is also important to realise that maybe the system isn't fair to absolutly all persons but it is close to fair to everyone that is in it and it is fair to most of those in it.

[JanuZ]

Originally posted by Neff@May 20 2006, 11:29 AM
Imagine when sog first started raiding? it was a 35-5 Danu/sog ratio, and i think teni got hte first epic in sog,(From mc) wich was LB bracers or something? well it doesnt matter.

Actually it was 25/15 -30/10 ratio and vargen and ragnarh got the loot from the first lucifron kill, i also think dillinja got a BoE felheart piece before we killed lucifron. I didn't get an item before 2months after we started raiding, that was the night we took down gehennas for the first time.

[Neff]

Originally posted by Drazila@May 20 2006, 09:47 AM
But the DKP system and invite system has been complained about since the start, The dkp system has never been changed and the invite system has been changed at least 4times but there will always be complaints about those things and the people that have been here for a long time realise this. And it is also important to realise that maybe the system isn't fair to absolutly all persons but it is close to fair to everyone that is in it and it is fair to most of those in it.

[post=128016]Quoted post[/post]

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Quotint Teni here( or do you prefer Drazila? or puddlepums?)
Its close to perfect,(imo)  and you progress fast enough in MC so that you can get alot of dkp & items quickly, it'll come just wait

[Voretex]

From my experiance, and with other guilds i know, for example i think righteous keeps RG1, RG2, RG3 etc all SEPARATE from each other.

This means, separate dkp site, separate raids all altogeather RG1 doesnt have enough members for MC? tough sh-it. Not enough for BWL, tough shi-t again there should be plenty of members about to support RG1

I totally understand what RG2 people are saying, and although its helping RG1, it is totally unfair to the rest of the prople in RG2

[Voretex]

Originally posted by Sinap@May 20 2006, 08:47 AM
Fully agree with Neff and Vargens posts, its dkp for gods sake.....

[post=127997]Quoted post[/post]

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Oki if its just 'dkp for gods sake' take the dkp system away and roll.  Those comments totally underminded the dkp system all togeather.

DKP is meant to award attendance, but if it only awards the people from RG2 that can type the "key word" the fastest, or needed purely on a class need,  it awards people on luck, or fastest typer. Which is why I can totally understand everyones problem from RG2 with it.  80% of them WANT the opportunity to raid BWL and get the extra dkp, and hell, maybe even a piece of loot? But in reality, maybe 2-3 people a week get to join.  Leave possibly up to 20 other people feeling left out.

[Voretex]

ALOT if not ALL the RG1 posts are extremely rational, "lol u will get loot in the end just wait"

Every poster (rg1)has basically condemned the DKP system by saying stuff like "its just loot" if its just loot take the dkp system away and roll. As its clear it isn't  helping RG2 at the present moment!

[JanuZ]

Originally posted by Voretex@May 20 2006, 12:26 PM
Oki if its just 'dkp for gods sake' take the dkp system away and roll. Those comments totally underminded the dkp system all togeather.

DKP is meant to award attendance, but if it only awards the people from RG2 that can type the "key word" the fastest, or needed purely on a class need, it awards people on luck, or fastest typer. Which is why I can totally understand everyones problem from RG2 with it. 80% of them WANT the opportunity to raid BWL and get the extra dkp, and hell, maybe even a piece of loot? But in reality, maybe 2-3 people a week get to join. Leave possibly up to 20 other people feeling left out.

[post=128021]Quoted post[/post]

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First of it doesn't undermine the DKP system, it is saying that people don't need to focus or even see the DKP system. The DKP system is there to help the officers spread the loot so it benefits the guild the most, it just a bonus that it rewards people for time spent also.

About the sepperate RG1 and RG2 that would work but we would need to invite more persons since the current system isn't built for 2full raid groups. 2 Full raid groups need a minimum of 7per class for 72% attendance requirement and 8per class for 66% attendance. The problem lies with in the fact that someone always complains about minor issuse with the invite system so the officers change it but as i said you can't make a system that everyone likes since that would require you to have a guild of 40persons with 100% attendance.

[JanuZ]

I hate the edit delay

If you are wondering why it is a bad thing to invite more people to the guid to have 2 sepperate groups here is why

Once there was a guild with 64members that raided MC and BWL. But not everyone had the lowest attendance required to raid so there were queues of 15persons to get into the raids at times. Then someone got an idea, we have more then a half a raid group, why don't we invite another half raid group so we can all raid. So the guild went up to 90raiders and everyone got to raid, but sometimes the old raid needed more players so they had to invite extra persons from the new raid. This made the new raiders sad since there wasn't a big chance that they would get into the old raids. So they propose to get more people in the guild so there is enough players for both raids. And now instead of having one raid with 15man queue they had 2 raids with 15man queues.

Pros for current system

-No queues on MC raid nights.
-People aren't sad that they didn't get into BWL with RG1 or that someone else is raiding MC when they aren't.
-You have reserves for both groups when they are missing people so raids aren't canceled because of lack of people

Cons

-Invites are random and not easy to get when the reserves are needed(only fix for this is a rotation wich is hard to implement and people will complain that they didn't have a chance to use there turn since they couldn't raid that night)
-Those that get the reserve spot get some extra DKP(fixes for this are only to remove the DKP from the person that gets the spot witch is unfair for that person since he earned that DKP and might cause people not wanting the reserve spots or the rotation system)

Signup pages are equally random as the raid invite on the raid night, it is just a question of who is online when the signup comes up.



Pros for a full 2raid group 64man system

-Noone can get extra DKP from joining other group.
-Raids will always have enough people for the raids and never needs reserves.

Cons

-queues can be long at times(require higher attendance so that you can have shorter queues and a kick policy for those that can't hold that attendance)
-invites are random and harder to get(same fixes as above)

I am pretty sure people prefer no queues(less DKP and less raiding time) over a minor error that sets them maybe a week behind in loot.

[Gorion]

Originally posted by Greatdanes@May 20 2006, 09:14 AM
As the invite system works today it is a matter of who got the best internet connection and the lowers lag at moment the invite goes out so they can see the invite in the chat windows first and push the “enter” button. I myself have tried that and when I see the message it was to later already.

that is totally false..

if you are waiting for your class invites and youre totally 100% prepared then you will get in the raid.. lets talk about another example of myself.. i NeVeR missed an mc/bwl raid if i was online.. with the current/older/more older system.. and my normal ping is like 300ms..

if you missed it.. then it means you werent ready 100% and not entrely focused.. and yes there was a very high competition with the warr slots that time.. we were like 10 warrs trying to get in? (this was the time of rexangelus, thkdk etcetc)




so now pls lets all stop this pointless discussion, if you want the inv for bwl when there are not enough rg1 peeps, be ready stay ready and be focused for when/if the the rg2 spots become available, the ones who get in merit their dkp and no one should flame/comment about that cos that is absolutely Lame

thank you

[Padding]

I've read the posts multipe times, and after talking to deadlyspirit last night i seem to have more insight on the matter.

There is multiple problem with our current setup and DKP system, and what i just would like to point out *once again* is that WE ARE AWARE OF THE ISSUE.

Since this is a very technical issue and not easily solveable, just be aware thats ITS GOING TO TAKE TIME TO FIX IT

The Officers are going to have to take our time to find the right system we think is fair for all people in the guild, going forward with instances like AQ40 and Naxxramus


We value all input, since it makes us more capable to make the hard decisions so please dont stop discussing, but everybody try to keep it in an orderly fashion.