Trial Loot System Feedback

[Bob]

Just wanna add my support to [post=161298]Vargen's last post[/post].  He made some really good points, and managed to express them way better than I could have done :thumb:

Luthor also had [post=159562]a post some pages back[/post] that I also think made quite a bit of sense.  Although it might be to push things a bit to extremes, it had some stuff worth noticing as well!

[Nefrion]

I dont know if you noticed DK, but I didnt take any side. I just stated that I clearly can see why Vargen would like DKP = DKP. He has got loads of DKP and he is a hybrid class. People tend to get greedy when phat loot drops. The best intentions can be written here on the forums and you just sit and hug yourself but when the loot drops people get that Gollum look in their eyes. My preeeecious!
 
Just remember if you take [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item] from a warrior, hunter or rogue who benefits from it in raids you may result in that Huhuran survives with 8000hp.
 
Just my two copper.

[Incentos]

I dont know if you noticed DK, but I didnt take any side. I just stated that I clearly can see why Vargen would like DKP = DKP. He has got loads of DKP and he is a hybrid class. People tend to get greedy when phat loot drops. The best intentions can be written here on the forums and you just sit and hug yourself but when the loot drops people get that Gollum look in their eyes. My preeeecious!
 
Just remember if you take [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item] from a warrior, hunter or rogue who benefits from it in raids you may result in that Huhuran survives with 8000hp.
 
Just my two copper.

Totally agree with nefrion here. I don't mind the talisman going to a feral druid but the dkp system you prefer Vargen also allows it to go to a loladin which makes me :ranting:. Especially when it is in the bank/bag during raids.

[Greatdanes]

Why does people have something against other people getting loot and in that way getting a reward for the work they have done for the guild/raid.
 
With the DKP system you will get you reward when you made youself deserved to it. With the priority system you can get a item first time you raid in head of a guy who have raid 100 times. For me that's not fair play.
 
I think if a guy have played alot of times and given his effort to the raid, he deserved a reward for his time and if he find a item usefull for him no matter it's for raiding - pvp - farming he should get it. He should not be punish for playing the wrong class.

[Mazii]

Why does people have something against other people getting loot and in that way getting a reward for the work they have done for the guild/raid.
 
With the DKP system you will get you reward when you made youself deserved to it. With the priority system you can get a item first time you raid in head of a guy who have raid 100 times. For me that's not fair play.
 
I think if a guy have played alot of times and given his effort to the raid, he deserved a reward for his time and if he find a item usefull for him no matter it's for raiding - pvp - farming he should get it. He should not be punish for playing the wrong class.

So if a Paladin takes Ashkandi from a DPS specced Warrior thats fair?

The old system was perfect, just 1 thing have to be changed. When you bid on a item, you write YOUR OWN DKP/item in the raid chat. Everyone do that and everyone can see who wants the item. In that way you can easily pass to another player. Just an example could be Brutality Blade that DonnieKingo got that Jemeny would have liked, Chromatic Tempered Blade and so on. The only thing that makes this hard, is to get people to shut up in raid chat while making loot - but diffinetly doable.

[Incentos]

GD, i dont know about you, but i prefer raidprogress. I would like to see the Twins going down. I would like to go to Naxx. If those goals are postponed because of loot hand out to ppl who greed instead of need all the time then that ****es me off.
 
Why do you think ppl like kain left the guild? Thats not raid progress...thats a needless setback cause it means gearing up another rogue with tier 2 so he can contribute 100% to the 'cause'.
 
And why do people always think a reward should be in the form of an item? Progress alone should be a reward...the joy of bringing down something that seemed impossible. The fuzz on TS after that kill. The items will follow as you proceed.

[Luminance]

So if a Paladin takes Ashkandi from a DPS specced Warrior thats fair?

The old system was perfect, just 1 thing have to be changed. When you bid on a item, you write YOUR OWN DKP/item in the raid chat. Everyone do that and everyone can see who wants the item. In that way you can easily pass to another player. Just an example could be Brutality Blade that DonnieKingo got that Jemeny would have liked, Chromatic Tempered Blade and so on. The only thing that makes this hard, is to get people to shut up in raid chat while making loot - but diffinetly doable.

think this will be a good aternative to the priority sytem, maybe even better, but then again, you could get a higher i don't like you so i wont pass to you factor (this shouldn't be here ofc, but it is and you can't get it away cuz not all 40 people can always like all the other 39 people)

i still think priority with a max dkp diffirence or a dkp*star system would work better.

[Nebuoh]

Imho, Vargen made a very good point. People do have lots of DKP because they put in a lot of time to get there, which allows for new players to experience these instances/bosses. People should be able to be rewarded because of that effort and not have to lose an item to someone else SIMPLY because it has been prioritised that way. I am sure that nobody here would like to lose out on an item, for which they have saved and passed on in the past, to a new guildie simply cause he/she has a class priority on it.
 
On the other hand, people must also still be wary of the fact that some items CAN indeed be of better use to some other class. But in this case, as has been stated in a lot of previous posts by other people, it CAN ALSO sometimes be that a certain player (class) will have a LARGER upgrade/improvement from an item than a player (class) that would normally be suited best for that particular item. In this case I think the raid will benefit far more from it.
 
In any case, still a hard nut to crack

[Nefrion]

If you practice the DKP = DKP and no priority you could be cynical and say that it is not the new people in the raid group that is stopping progress but the greed of the one with much DKP.
 
I dont say that the one with the most DKP is not entitled to loot but you need to make a choice. Do you act on what benefits the raid or on what you really want because it makes life outside raids some what easier for you. What comes first? You or the team?

[Greatdanes]

If you got a item who helps you farming mats or gold to make you self some pots / enchanting who will make you better in raid, is that not benefit for the raid group?

[Bob]

If you practice the DKP = DKP and no priority you could be cynical and say that it is not the new people in the raid group that is stopping progress but the greed of the one with much DKP.
 
I dont say that the one with the most DKP is not entitled to loot but you need to make a choice. Do you act on what benefits the raid or on what you really want because it makes life outside raids some what easier for you. What comes first? You or the team?

Since we've moved to the cynical side, here's another example for you:

If you want to enshure that you gain the most benefit from each item that drops, why even use DKP?  One could just look at the gear folks have, and the ones with the least amount of epic items get the drop.  Shurely that will in theory gain the raid the most, since that person will get the biggest upgrade from it.

Now tell me how good a solution this sounds like :sideways:

[Mazii]

If you got a item who helps you farming mats or gold to make you self some pots / enchanting who will make you better in raid, is that not benefit for the raid group?

Not in the same way. Lets use my last example that a Paladin got Ashkandi instead of a Warrior. The Paladin was just as good of with Halberd of Smiting or any other lower DPS weapon for farming mats for different stuff. It just takes a little longer time to farm, but you have to live with that.

Items benefiting the raid in instances is much more important then items benefiting single persons just to farm.

[Umbra]

if the paladin has raided 100 times and the dps warrior is new, then yes its fair that the pally gets it if he wants it tbh (again i say what kind of dps warrior but ignore that for now).

the main problem is balancing rewards for time/dedication spent against overall improvement of the raid. in other words, 'gear up the new guy' compared to 'reward the veteran for spending days of his life and effort and blood and maybe lost RL friends etc in order to keep raiding and help the group progress'. they BOTH have advantages.

a) new geared guy gets lots of loot fast, get that person up to speed with everyone else, good for the raid (as long as they don't then run off to another guild, remember, if people have to spend months raiding to get items they are more likely to have gained some feel for the society and cameraderie in sog, and feel they have some investment)

b) The people who have raided for a year or so, have given up (i'm sorry guys) a hell of alot more sanity and life and time than a great deal of the relatively new guys who are pi$$ed about not getting loot on their 20th bwl run. Some of these HAVE passed items they'd love to others so far, but should they have to pass it to EVERYONE of another class?

Sure, improve the gear of the new ish guys, but if you make it so easy they won't have truly earned it and won't really care about leaving sog for another guild.
Reward the veterans who've spent time wiping/leading/stressing, but don't gimp the rest of the raid. If a pally raided for a year or more and a 2h arms warr was new, the pally taking ashkandi isn't greed, he's surely earned the right to have and use an item he's been after for many many months. Otherwise you might just lose someone who is greatly experienced and has great gear.

Basically, improve overall raid specs but don't penalise the people who have put in the most time and effort. there may be a smaller overall upgrade but as long as it IS an upgrade, don't worry about it. If we were all gonna work on pure stats we'd be robots, that's not fun.

Alot of people previously seem to go for one method or the other, without assuming there might be compromise.

[Nefrion]

If you got a item who helps you farming mats or gold to make you self some pots / enchanting who will make you better in raid, is that not benefit for the raid group?

How much faster do you think you are gonna farm because you get Asscandy instead of The Untamed Blade or whatever?
 
Im just sick and tired of people saying that loot is not important- the progress of the raid is. And then the same people in another thread wants DKP = DKP because they then can get loot that they want which does not benefit the raid at all but makes their life outside raids a little easier.
 
Im not saying which system is better and frankly I dont care. Eventually the loot will come.

[Vargen]

Well you might consider me greedy for wanting my feral trinket. I have allready passed on it for others with lower DKP, and I probably would again. But now I don't get the chance to even. And this discussion isn't about improving raid progress, this is about how rogues can get EVERYTHING all at once. I really think that a rogue going from blue gear to a full bloodfang set would improve his performance much more then getting the one trinket I want. We are talking about one of the best trinkets around here, and the other mentioned items are also the best around. But keep in mind, just because a system allows for someone to take an item, doesn't mean they HAVE to take it.

You say I am greedy for wanting the option to take loot if I want it. Isn't it pretty greedy to deny druids, hunters and paladins loot alltogether? Don't pretend you can't see that the rogue class comes out as the winner in every situation on this system.