New Management Structure

[Armitage]

Dan. You got fooled by the name of the thread. It's not a debate, this is for peopel to agree with OBs' new plan and if you don't,
 
 

play elsewhere

[Jewelz^]

IMO, we should bring back the old 'Alpha Brava Charlie Delta' groups. If your in bravo, you can wear the tag on any game. simple.

[smilodon]

I thought I'd put you right on a couple of points

You guys see fit to charge the majority for what I see as "fringe benefits" and disguise this under a "membership" of sorts. What I fail to see here is openness and transparency and often decisions are taken for the community without any consultation or discussion.
 
If we are expected to pay "membership" (yes I know it's not manditory) then why as members, do we not have any say in the running of the community?

It's not possible for someone to charge someone else when that charge is not mandatory. What you're referring to is something called a voluntary contribution. Also the voluntary contribution has nothing to do with what games a person can play, when they can play them or how long they can play them for. So in effect there is zero charge for playing on the servers. It's free. The contribution gives a few extra privileges on the forum. So on the basis of them being free it's maybe not unreasonable to accept them on an 'as is' basis.
 

Why as paid members do we not have visability of the running costs of the community? Is there a treasurer that prepares a budget that is submitted for approval to the community leaders?

I'd point out the thread HERE that TL has been keeping pretty much up to date since 2004

[delanvital]

Out of curiosity - is there public support (i.e. money) to properly established clubs/associations, in the UK? I know there are complications (international members would not count) but using the British LAN turnup as the basis, it would pay out around Ã,£1000 a year if dMw was a Danish thing, just for comparison, and arranging larger sponsors is much easier being a registered association.

[TeaLeaf]

IMO, we should bring back the old 'Alpha Brava Charlie Delta' groups. If your in bravo, you can wear the tag on any game. simple.

Sounds simple but this option was debated at length by all the Section Heads and discounted as the SHs thought it would lead to massive problems.  Old territory and off-topic for this thread.

TL.

[Gone_Away]

Hey Armitage. My comment was directed at the management not the plebs. If I wanted to hear from the monkey I would have brought bananas with me.. As the man said:
 

This community is run by TeaLeaf and me.

[Gone_Away]

I thought I'd put you right on a couple of points
 
 
It's not possible for someone to charge someone else when that charge is not mandatory. What you're referring to is something called a voluntary contribution. Also the voluntary contribution has nothing to do with what games a person can play, when they can play them or how long they can play them for. So in effect there is zero charge for playing on the servers. It's free. The contribution gives a few extra privileges on the forum. So on the basis of them being free it's maybe not unreasonable to accept them on an 'as is' basis.
 
 
I'd point out the thread HERE that TL has been keeping pretty much up to date since 2004

See Above..
 
Also see the post that you quoted which clearly states "not manditory"
 
Also I've reviewed the recount of what the community funds have been spent on. So while you see fit to specifically slice my post into manageable pieces for your ego, perhaps you can tell me where in the thread quoted there's a budget? Let me know if you want me to define budget for you.. :g:

[sulky_uk]

can i suggest moving this to the subscribed section or to the mods section, as any person wanting to join and seeing this thread may not want to
 
 
laundry sometimes need to be done with the washing machine door closed to stop spilliage's

[Doorman]

can i suggest moving this to the subscribed section or to the mods section, as any person wanting to join and seeing this thread may not want to
 
 
laundry sometimes need to be done with the washing machine door closed to stop spilliage's

It wouldn't be an open 'debate' then would it?

[Gone_Away]

This community is run by TeaLeaf and me. We trust each other implicitly to uphold the ideals that make this particular gaming community different i.e. better than the rest. We've seen the opposition and it can't hold a candle to what is provided here.

Oldie, let's take this offline. I can see from the timing of your post that might have swayed your comment. While I agree that the ethos that makes dMw unique is appealing but if it was better than the rest people would be flocking here to play.
 
Also, and this is to all you guys on the defensive, my comments while challenging were meant to be constructive. If I didn't give 2 penny's why would I stick my neck out like this?
 

No-one pays membership. It's a voluntary subscription, open and transparent as it can be. I challenge you to investigate the costs involved in hosting two 2U gaming servers plus a 1U forum server and then tell me the business model you would employ to finance those costs. Don't forget to include the inevitable upgrade costs too.

I accept your challenge. I'll have a proposal for you and TL by August 16th. I'd have it sooner but I'm off for a week's holiday tomorrow. Let me know if you're not really serious so I don't waste my time.
 

If you're not happy with this community - play elsewhere. If you're not happy with paying the voluntary subscription - don't pay it. No-one will hold it against you. There has to be added value for members who subscribe but we have always emphasised that, in-game, there is no distinction made between those that do and those that don't. Quite simply, a bunch of committed people are doing their level best to provide the best gaming experience they can.

I'm genuinely surprised with your level of definsiveness. I like dMw alot. I think it could be much better / bigger. I'd like to help. You of all people should know that I've never had a problem with paying my share as well as volunteering to help out at the LAN's etc. Anything you've ever asked me to do I've done without hesitation.
 
Telling me to play elsewhere is quite shocking to be honest.
 
 

We are constantly evolving. We explore and then try things. Some work - some don't. So we try something else. This latest announcement is the next 'something else'. But let me ask you something - what isn't working for you? Where are you being failed?

Where do you get your input from? Is it just the usual network of input or is there more of a strategy to the exploration? I don't see you approaching the community to ask us what we want that's why I'd like to know. That's why I'd like the community to participate in the direction we take the community. If it's easier to run this as a dictatorship of sorts then just let me know.
 
I'd like to see more of a base of players to be honest. That's not a failure, just a shortcomming.
 
I'd like to see more variety of mod's and games. Why can't we have "fun" servers that attract a mixture of experience and backgrounds? We could always lock down the private servers to those that abide by the ethos of the greater community.
 
I'd like to turn up at 10 at night and see full servers whouldn't you?
 
 
 

This isn't a city corporation being run by highly paid professionals and we don't pretend to be. We are, however, committed to giving you, the members, the best gaming experience we possibly can without lowering the standards that make us what we are. That's not easy and I dare say some will think they could do it better but I can assure you that no-one is more committed to making sure that the ethos of this community is upheld than the people currently charged with doing so.

If you want to keep this community the size that it is then so be it. I only want to see things bigger and better.
 
To all those that PM'd me, thanks for your support. The response was along the lines that I expected but I still felt compelled to say it anyway.
 
To all those that didn't get what I was trying to put across, let me know and I'll explain it to you 1to1.

[Gone_Away]

It wouldn't be an open 'debate' then would it?

word.    

[smilodon]

I'm not chopping up anything and have no idea what you mean by ego?. I was just making a comment about two points you made. I didn't have anything to add regarding the many other issues you brought up, so I didn't quote those bits of your original post. I have made no comment about whether I agree with your thoughts or disagree. That wasn't the point of my post.

I was specifically referring to the idea of a 'charge' and 'membership' as well as the comment about being 'expected to pay'. As I understand it there is no 'charge' there is a contribution. No one is 'expected' to pay, 'it's voluntary'. Whether someone pays or does not pay has zero effect on their ability to play on the servers or post on the forums. You and I both payed the Ã,£12 because we chose to, not because we were forced to. If a member doesn't feel happy about making the contribution without having a more significant voice in the community then they shouldn't pay it.

Your basic idea

What I fail to see here is openness and transparency and often decisions are taken for the community without any consultation or discussion.

is a fair point to make, which we're all free to agree or disagree with. I'm just making the point that I don't think it's necessarily tied to any contributions/fees/ charges etc that people may make. To me it's a separate issue.

As to the budget. Well that sort of seemed pretty obvious to me. It's to cover hosting fees and the annual subscription to this forum software. that's about it. I don't want to speak for Tealeaf or Oldie but as far as I am aware there is no budget posted as there is no budget to post. I think the only other thing that our contributions were spend on was hardware. Again that's something that we clearly need to have for there to be any dMw. The old stuff was falling apart so we bought new stuff. Works for me.

[Sparko]

why is there so much negativity?, i havent been a member of this community for long but i know for sure its the best community i have ever come accross as far as online gaming is concerned. i cant see anything wrong with any part of the community, who its run by, where the funds go, how full the servers are.  what i wouldnt like to see  is the community to go all "commercial". i like the guys (and gals) that are online regularly, playing the games we always play.  At the end of the day we all just want to play games online, have a laugh, give each other stick etc.  

I cant imagine how much work is involved in keeping a community like this up and running.  some of us seem to forget when we are playing online on one of our servers (whatever game) how much effort has gone into providing it for Nothing.  

like i say i havent been a member of dMw for long but i really cant see anything wrong at all.  :g:

also i dont understand the problem with the donation part, am i missing something? :blink:

[delanvital]

[...] as far as I am aware there is no budget posted as there is no budget to post. I think the only other thing that our contributions were spend on was hardware. Again that's something that we clearly need to have for there to be any dMw. The old stuff was falling apart so we bought new stuff. Works for me.

IMHO, in places like this there is a need for clarity with respect to how the members money is being spent. Also, if the cashflow is so simple it would be an easy job to construct and present a budget to  subscribing members. It doesn't matter if the scenario is small and simple it is still worth making - for the sake of clarity.

[OldBloke]

Oldie, let's take this offline.

Shouldn't that have been the end of your reply? I've already been accused of stifling debate so, again, I will comment on your points.

I can see from the timing of your post that might have swayed your comment.

Are you seriously apologising for me? I stand by my comments totally despite the late hour they were posted.

While I agree that the ethos that makes dMw unique is appealing but if it was better than the rest people would be flocking here to play.

Being a committed member of our community is much more than finding our way of play 'appealing'. It's about not wanting to play any other way. If we didn't insist that our rules on attitude and teamwork were enforced then,
you're right, we would be attracting new players in droves. The problem is that the vast majority of them would be foul-mouthed fraghunters. Sadly, the people we want to attract are few and far between but they are out there and they are finding us but, currently, not in the numbers we need. I make no apologies for repeating myself - we will not lower our standards to attract more members.
 

Also, and this is to all you guys on the defensive, my comments while challenging were meant to be constructive. If I didn't give 2 penny's why would I stick my neck out like
this?

Your post included inaccuracies that some were inclined to point out to you.
 

I accept your challenge. I'll have a proposal for you and TL by August 16th. I'd have it sooner but I'm off for a week's holiday tomorrow. Let me know if you're not really serious so I don't waste my time.

You've misread my challenge. Anyone can get a quote for hosting. You slated our current method so I'm challenging you to find an alternative way of funding those costs from within the community.

Enjoy your holiday
 

I'm genuinely surprised with your level of definsiveness.

Really? It's my role to defend this community - and take the flak.
 

I like dMw alot.

I'm sure you do. But I also get the impression that it just doesn't 'do it' for you anymore. Apologies if I've misread that.

I think it could be much better / bigger. I'd like to help. You of all people should know that I've never had a problem with paying my share as well as volunteering to help out at the LAN's etc. Anything you've ever asked me to do I've done without hesitation.

And it's very much appreciated. TeaLeaf and I made a huge change to the community structure some time ago when it became obvious that we couldn't run the community by ourselves anymore. So we now have Section Admins who have complete control over the game they lead on and they in turn have their team of admins helping them. We can't thank them, and the volunteers like yourself, enough for the amount of time and effort they put into helping us keep the community running.[/QUOTE]
 

Telling me to play elsewhere is quite shocking to be honest.

What I actually said was 'If you're not happy with this community - play elsewhere'. We appreciate that not everyone is suited to our style of play and rules on conduct. So I would say to anyone - if you find 'our way' too restrictive then play elsewhere. I know that in the past some members have said that they often play on non-dMw public servers to get their fix of fragging. No problem with that but don't ask us to relax our rules to allow that to happen on the dMw servers.
 

Where do you get your input from? Is it just the usual network of input or is there more of a strategy to the exploration? I don't see you approaching the community to ask us what we want
that's why I'd like to know. That's why I'd like the community to participate in the direction we take the community. If it's easier to run this as a dictatorship of sorts then just let me know.

We have a dedicated area of the forum where we can discuss issues with the Section Admins. There's also an area where we can discuss issues with the game admins. We tend to use the former more but we do make use of both. Any member can request a change and many do. Most of those requests are game related and, as such, are handled by the Section Admin. TeaLeaf and I have a final say only if the debate calls for it. If you re-read the management structure you'll see that our role is to police the ethos. It's the role of the Section Admin to do everything they can to grow their section and hence the wider community. If they want to poll the membership they can.
 

I'd like to see more of a base of players to be honest. That's not a failure, just a shortcomming.

And that's the debate we should be having as it's the biggest issue facing the community today. Perhaps someone would like to start a thread so we can explore the possibilities?
 

I'd like to see more variety of mod's and games.

As I said before, we are committed to deploying new games as quickly as we can and, to that end, Whitey has recently resigned as Section Admin for CSS to allow him to concentrate on this.

Why can't we have "fun" servers that attract a mixture of experience and backgrounds? We could always lock down the private servers to those that abide by the ethos of the greater community.

So you want dMw to host public servers where none of our rules on attitude, conduct and teamplay are enforced? No chance. There are thousands of that type of server in existance already. We will not be putting our hard-earned reputation on the line for something so counterproductive to our aims and ideals. This is Dead Men Walking - home of gamers with mature attitudes and a real desire to play as part of a team. No compromises.  

I'd like to turn up at 10 at night and see full servers whouldn't you?

Bit late for me but, yes, absolutely. However, do I want them full of lamers? No. Before I come across as too much of a preacher let me say that I'm more than happy to see some relaxation in late night playing with things like swearing and banter but, for example, it is still totally unacceptable for a member to be subjected to a torrent of swear words just bacause it's late and the booze has been flowing.
 

If you want to keep this community the size that it is then so be it. I only want to see things bigger and better.

Not sure why you think I don't want the community to grow. Ye Gods, we've been harking on about it for months.
 

To all those that PM'd me, thanks for your support. The response was along the lines that I expected but I still felt compelled to say it anyway. To all those that didn't get what I was trying to put across, let me know and I'll explain it to you 1to1.

Everybody is entitled to their view but the last thing we need right now is a divided community. At the end of the day we all seem to actually want the same thing - more people to play with and more games to play here at dMw. So I ask everybody to add to that debate (new thread please) so that we can hear your views on how to grow the community without compromising our ethos.