Lord Rhyolith - Deafeated 18/07/11

[Arcticfire]

12% whipe today, first time P2. But unlucky because Switch his Tranq got interrupted by a knockback, lossed 2 dps because Rhy stood upon a volcano which was doing those lava streams.

Great progress on this guy, but dont think to easy about it, we need to be focussed every pull, something I missed the pulls after that.

[Legolei]

Perhaps we are, but adds would be significantly more spread and difficult to handle if we do not have a single tank on them in middle.  How would you propose handling those?  Dropping a tank is easy, but most kills are with two tanks as far as I can tell.  I'm happy for us to try a 1 tank approach if we have a sound strat to handle adds in the middle, but we also need to ask why if 2 tanks are being used most of the time why we need to run 1 tank?

For RGW the same: why one tank?
Now the tank needs to drag the spark into the healer/ranged group to pick up the fragments. Since the spark is doing a lot of AoE damage, this puts a big stress on the healers.
Our biggest sources of damage (all wipes combined) were:

• Eruption - avoidable
• Concussive Stomp - unavoidable
• Immolation - unavoidable, but can be much lower
• Melee - unavoidable
• Magma flow - avoidable

If you zoom into the Immolation damage, 55% is to the tank, 34% to the healer/ranged camp (without the hunter) and 15% to melee and steering hunter. That 34% creates a unnecessary healing stress, and should be lowered as much as possible. I think we should aim for 80% damage done to tank to start with.

You need three dps to decently steer him, with the rest of the dps helping out for the quick hard turns.

If we want to control this fight, we first should start with lowering the damage taken. For me the key to this (beside avoiding avoidable damage) is using a second tank so that the spark tank can quickly taunt the spark away from healers and dps. The ranged dps can then quickly take down spark and fragments.
Once we control it, we can go to more advanced tactics with 1 tank.

[TeaLeaf]

We actually ran one tank in the end.  We found it gave us more DPS control on steering and adds then become more manageable.  (don't ask me why, all the numbers I ran should have made us ok with 2 tanks)

The issue with 1 tank is how to group the little adds for AOE.  We found a pala healer with RF on gave a nice grouping point and the tank would return to this point to tnak the adds *on* the healing camp whenever he did not have a Spark to deal with.  Again, it is important for tank to leave group ASAP before the Spark spawns to minimise chance of it remaining in the raid for too long.

[Jewelz^]

I found most of my deaths were due to the big add in the group with me having too many stacks. Ranged taunt ftw? or do the little adds need to tanked also? they went down quick enough to not do too much damage

[Grimnar]

I found most of my deaths were due to the big add in the group with me having too many stacks. Ranged taunt ftw? or do the little adds need to tanked also? they went down quick enough to not do too much damage

That is what RGT is doing, as the little adds go down quick enough we have them stacking up in the healer camp and the 1 tank taunts the spark away from the healer/ranged camp.

With the tank also trying to stay away from the melee/leg group.

[Legolei]

Let's see who will be removed from the Rhyolith fights first:
The damage from the Lava Stream

- Palsboll was already removed
- Vladic was steering
- Legolei asked to be replaced after 2nd wipe due to being tired
- Dreaman will be the first healer to leave the raid, took almost as much damage as someone who was too tired to concentrate
- Same for Darthdrew and Moonslash

I won't continue, we are already out of healers.

Out of 9 pulls, 4 people stood 5 times in the lava streams, three people 3 times. The only ones who took a lot more hits are the ones that can't see it coming due to a very big leg in front of them.
So before threatening people to be replaced because they stand in the fire, first look at yourself, instead of saying it in such way that others are blamed.

Same statistics, but from monday. Seems we did not improve. Maybe we should do something different with the healer/ranged camp, instead of starting next to the edge everytime, and moving two or three times at most during all the attempts. Maybe we should stay far from craters and active vulcanos. No, not maybe, definitely.

Next time, replace me when I ask for it. My eyes were almost closed.

[Sithvid]

I guess you are even more tired as u post this

[Arcticfire]

Dear legolei,

Now, where to start.
First of all with you being tired.  Simple question, did we have a other ranged DPS on the bank?

about the movement, noone seems to have trouble with it, except you. However when we do move the camp around we always have people staying behind ect, which result in a wipe.

Then for the magma flows, if we have healers standing in magma flow, we will replace them if we  have back up.
In my defence, I know that Ive been standing in magma flow 2-3 times when it as a wipe, to die quicker.

So again, who says it was a threat to just the tanks and dps? noone, just you.
If people perform bad, they will get replaced.

[pälsboll]

If people perform bad, they will get replaced.

hmm? why even say that when its no one to replace a range DPS for ex?
but I can get replaced in a heartbeat since Im melee without not even telling me why?  

so what I miss in RGW is teamwork. ask ppl why they do some stuff and help them do it right instead. and after that if they keep on messing up then replace them..
don´t just shout.. don´t stand in the fire! tell them how to get out and where to stand instead (as an example) ..

and for the boss.. don´t we need 3 melee in this fight?

[Legolei]

Dear legolei,

Now, where to start.
First of all with you being tired.  Simple question, did we have a other ranged DPS on the bank?

Treach in his offspec. It could have been a melee too. Melee can kill the adds in the camp too. Adjust your tactics and overcome.

about the movement, noone seems to have trouble with it, except you. However when we do move the camp around we always have people staying behind ect, which result in a wipe.

Maybe I'm the only one saying it? Did you check? And I have seen people move out of the AoE heals to avoid damage, dps and healers. I've seen healers move 20 yards out of the group to be able to heal the melee on the boss.
Let's see our default starting positions. Tell me, is your healing range big enough to heal the melee at position 2? Since 9 out of 10 times we go right first.
That people stay behind is just a matter of training, we move the same group all the time on fights like Omnotron and V&T.

Then for the magma flows, if we have healers standing in magma flow, we will replace them if we  have back up.
In my defence, I know that Ive been standing in magma flow 2-3 times when it as a wipe, to die quicker.

Lame excuse. And then: "...if we have back up." So healers are immune since we have only 3 mainspec healers max showing up every raid. Ranged dps is not really threatened, since the 'optimal tactic' is always in favor of ranged. So melee will be replaced as soon as they stand in the fire once too many?

Fact is, any melee on the legs of the boss will have more magma flows hits, since some will just spawn directly below them, and they have no option to go else. They have to hit the legs so that Rhyolith is controlled. They only way to prevent the hits, is good steering, hitting the active vulcano's and staying away from the craters. As long as we are not really in control of that part of the fight, my opinion is that we just accept it and deal with it.

Just for comparison: RGT being hit by Magma Flow on their last Rhyolith kill.

So again, who says it was a threat to just the tanks and dps? noone, just you.

Your interpretation, not my words, read carefully. I did not mention dps/tank/healer.

If people perform bad, they will get replaced.

On what criteria? Where do you draw the line? Perform bad absolutely or relatively, and to what criteria?
Who's fault is it when a druid dps (feral or balance) has to stop his/her rotation and his/her dps drops, because a healer begs for an innervate? Will you blame the dps for low dps or the healer for bad mana management? Or the rest of the group for taking too much damage?
Whose fault is it, if anyone gets hit by a magma flow, when the healer/ranged camp is not moved, just staying next to craters? Leaving no time to react and no room to sidestep a flow.
Whose fault is it, to send the whole group halfway around over the platform at the start of P2, leaving the whole group without heals, leading to an instant wipe? We need to be behind the boss, you say? Good, let the tank pick him up and turn him around, and then move if needed.

Fact is, we are on an absolute scale all bad players. We all lack insight, we all lack awareness, we all lack skill, we all lack the absolute drive to be the best.
Is this a problem? No, since on a relative scale, we are on eachothers level.  No, not for me, as long as I or anyone of my teammates is not threatened in anyway while doing his/her best. The threat shows what is really smoldering: frustration. Frustration, because the progress is not as wanted. Who's fault is that? The one with the expectation or the group that has to live up to it?
No one stands in the fire on purpose when we try to kill a boss. Everyone is doing his/her best, both in game and in the preparation. We have to accept that we need (much) more time. in weeks and tries, than other groups to learn and control fights. And set expectations accordingly. Everyone of us makes mistakes, even on 'farm' fights. I don't mind, I don't raid to have world/server/guild firsts.

The threat ruins the reason why we play this game and raid at DMR: fun. That really upsets me.

[Legolei]

I guess you are even more tired as u post this

Nope, I was suddenly very awake. I had suddenly a lot of adrenalin in my body.
For 20 minutes or so, then I was even more tired, and slept longer that I've needed to sleep in the last year, slept like a :baby2:.

[Sithvid]

Good kills on the other bosses tho my first spider kill

[JonnyAppleSeed]

I think the wording of "bad performance" is wrong ... Its more a case of people struggling with a fight. If somone is having a hard time with a specific mechanic on each try you get a delicate balance between learning the fight and slowing the raid. I would have a chat with officers and if we have options we will swap people in /out. I think most of the time if we ask people to swap out they know that they are having an issue. 10 man is very unforgiving and loosing 1 person can be the difference. We also swap for many other reasons / rotation / mechanics /

Rgt have a team of people looking at whats going on rgw has a damm hard task of being run by Drea. Can i ask that you support him as much as possible being put on the spot and having to make these difficult calls during the raid and keeping up the pace means it not always possible to do a full breakdown of what is going wrong. We have the logs. From a quick look (ty lego) i can see that we do have a problem with people getting clipped by fire. This is a personal thing to control no tactic will help. I would say if you are having problems tweek dbm/dxe to give a enhanced warning of the thing that you are having trouble with

[Arcticfire]

@pals, your right, I should have whispered you, it was caus we only had 15mins left or so? but that isnt an excuses I should have pmed your, my apologies.
@the fire part, how can I help you with that? All we can do is shout for magma flow, but in the heat of battle that doesnt always happen+ I am not the type of guy that spoon feeds. And no actually 2 Melee works better, I think we have noticed that as it went way better when Vladic was stearing.

@lego, treach was already in, and I wanted to try it with 2 melee, which IMO works better.
the Melee will be out of ranged sometimes, it happens and they shouldnt take much damage anyway, its why we are dotting them up when they close and its why sometimes a healer moves out to heal them.
K, my bad Its 2 times instead of 3, good job finding that.
Due to vacation time and people we do not have that many people on the bench, I dont know where Lynx was, Nims had to leave obviously and for the rest everyone was in.

where do I draw the line? let me say that if your below 10K dps then you are doing something wrong, even if you have to stop your rotation because of 2 innervates.(not saying someone was).

Whose fault is it, to send the whole group halfway around over the  platform at the start of P2, leaving the whole group without heals,  leading to an instant wipe? We need to be behind the boss, you say?  Good, let the tank pick him up and turn him around, and then move if  needed.
Ehhh???

And at your last point, im quite sure that there are more people in that group that want progress and do a good job, and expect others to do that, then we have people that just raid for fun and wiping.
There is a difference between worlds first and realms first then putting up with our capabilities, if I wouldnt think people could do this then I wouldnt even start with it.

and then, instead of ragequitting on TS you could also asked me, switch or sithy to have a chat on TS instead of logging of and go straight to the forums.

[TeaLeaf]

I think the key here is to discuss it on TS sensibly before slinging mud on the forums.  Too often a sentence on the forums can be misconstrued and needless offence given.  I think it's too late in this instance, but I'd urge people to think carefully before slinging more mud.  The fights are a challenge, Rhyo has been for RGT too, but stick together as a team and support each other during this particular road block, that's what gives the great feeling when the kill finally comes.

Re Rhyo
We all start on the right side, let Rhyo walk past and then start dps on legs after first stomp
We use 2 melee dps + a ranged on legs
-leg dps is a result of removing 2 ranged AOE dps from the list of possibles (they handle small adds), 1 ranged on sparks prio
-(or 3 melee when the group is short on ranged)
-this leaves 1 ranged plus 2 melee on legs
Ranged group (inc tank) groups in mid-ish around a marked healer and remains there throughout the fight.  
-we move slightlyfrom side to side around mid as fire/volcano dictates
-MT only leaves totaunt Sparks out of mid then returns
-we run a holy pala with RF on to help group the little adds when the MT is out on a spark
-by grouping tight we get very effective dps on the adds and they go down fast
-too much movement will always cause issues, both for range & dps.
 
RGW's DPSe looks about 10-15k rdps short of RGT on this fight.  It *is* an issue and people need to figure out how to max up the dps being done - mana use has nothing to do with this, RGT use dps innervates, I mana hymn, etc and the effect is not of the order of magnitude to close the gap needed.,

When you hit roadblocks like this you need analysis & performance management if you want to progress at a reasonable speed.   Some times people do not like performance management or the result.  Often people are not aware of the whole picture and the reasoning for any changes to raid make up - and in the middle ofall this sometimes the RL might forget to effectively communicate a change to a person.  But, whilst Drea has already apologised for missing a communication, keep in mind that RLs receive and deliver a vast number of whispers/comments each raid and have one hell of a job handling all of the information on the night and keeping the raid progressing at a reasonable pace, so I'd echo Jas' comments and support Drea in whatever way you can, he deserves it after all of the work he has put in to RGW.

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