HEROIC - Baleroc - DEFEATED 06/11/11

[hubbah]

I dont want to get in the middle of the finger pointing etc.. but ist it abit harsh to just decline all raids?
If you need help with your rotation or whatever im always willing to read up abit and try to be of assistance.
Your fireshock had an uptime of 47% while other enhance shammy's in the Top 200 have an uptime of close to 100%.
Same for firetotem thingie.
And if your saying the dps drops like a brick because you have to move out of melee range then we could see how we can improve that part.

There are things that can be improved to your playstyle and / or rotation just like it can be approved in mine, no need to just call it quits..

[Slush]

I dont want to get in the middle of the finger pointing etc.. but ist it abit harsh to just decline all raids?

Well, you just did. So here we go...

If you need help with your rotation or whatever im always willing to read up abit and try to be of assistance.

He didnt ask for help. He did however decline all raid invites and go... "Everything said". He is NOT getting any sympathy from me doing it this way. He should already be uptodate on mechanics of his class that ha has been playing for... well, one year? Two years?

And if your saying the dps drops like a brick because you have to move out of melee range then we could see how we can improve that part.

Melee in this fight (Baleroc heroic) know how to move... No wait... The ones who have been paying attention know how to move. Its all in videos, its all been explained on TS.
AND in addition to this... Didnt you read this thread? Ice Hawk had a wall of text that explained how this works... Just yesterday! Did you see Noreia ask about this? Did you see him commenting on this? Do you see any interest at all from him discussing mechanics in these forums?

There are things that can be improved to your playstyle and / or rotation just like it can be approved in mine, no need to just call it quits..

Well, I think we have to respect his decision? Its not up to you how other people manage critisism/advices, is it? If someone feels like they are not able to do their part.. Why keep struggling?

[Whitey]

This thread is here to help us with tactics on the Baleroc fight and has been going further off topic in the last few posts (yes we need more dps but that point was made at least a page ago).  

Can we please get this thread back on topic!

[Noréia]

I don't know what is wrong with you slush!
I am doing this game for fun. I don't know about you.

Fingerpointing you do well!
Guess how often I had to wait for you because your stupid internet connection wasn't working! Why didn't you fix it faster? Don't care? This was going on for month!
Guess how often the tank died because you werent able to keep it up! Did you not read on tacticts?
Guess how often I died because you did not heal enough! Did not follow the fight flow?
A blaiming contest does not lead anywhere.

Your "fix it or make tracks" criticism is not helpful at all, it just makes people angry.

To tell that I have to put my fire totem up 100% is something else. That is constructive criticism. Btw Hubbah, I know that! Thats why I learned to use Power Auras to have a better interface to deal with that. Not perfect yet.
Iam working on that intensively.

Yday I just cancelled all raids as I am out for some time, but I decided not to give in to your mobbing slush. So it has been corrected.

And this is my last post to this!

[hubbah]

No need to attack Slush on his playing style & internet connection here.
As far as i know hes mistakes are at a minimum and he can not help having a shitty internet connection gnegne.

I do agree with slush but i think its someting we can work at as a team, thats all i was trying to say.

@ whitey: where should we adress problems like this then? The only thing we are trying to do is pinpoint the problems we are having and try to resolve them before we wipe another night on a boss we know we can do eazy. Maybe the way slush handled it is not the best way but the point still stands!
If i was the one that was on the lower side of the dps meter ( what is gonna happen next patch if i have to believe mmo champ & elitest jerks ) i would do Everything to fix it and if that would not be possible i would find another way to contribute to the maximum on a progress raid.
I know not everyone thinks the same as me on that subject.

[Noréia]

I did not attack Slush for his playing style! I tried to make clear by examples that blaiming doesn't help!

[TeaLeaf]

This thread is here to help us with tactics on the Baleroc fight and has been going further off topic in the last few posts (yes we need more dps but that point was made at least a page ago).  

Can we please get this thread back on topic!

This is a FINAL warning to all those involved in the flaming at the moment.  This is a tactic thread, not a vendetta thread, only post to talk about tactics for this boss.  

If you have issues with personnel take it to a DMR Council member so that we can handle it - we might be more aware of things than you think and usually know more than you due to us having access to privy information.  Do not run a personal hate campaign not matter how justified you feel.   DMR Council will handle all personnel issues, please let us do our job and not try to run your own vigilante action.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

Right thats enough of the finger pointing and sillyness.

 The officers spend alot of time understanding whats going on in the raids and monitoring peoples performance. First lets put where we are in perspective. When we kill Beth and are faced with raggy we will be looking head on at a server 1st. No guild has killed on 10 man. The point im making is we are killing bosses that require a min performance level. This is high end  stuff that requires preperation from everyone. This boss has a simple enrage kill in 6 mins or wipe. If dps cant hit the amount needed then we must bench them. Its a harsh but understandable fact. Its nothing personal its just plain old number crunching. Same would go for me if I could not heal enough to keep the tank alive

Ill fire back to TL's post we "all" can make improvements some have more improvemet room than others.

What we need to remember is raiding time is limited and its takes a massive commitment from everyone to turn up. To have that time slip away on needless wipes causes frustration. We can usualy keep this to a min but as the bosses get harder we are seeing people(more than one) max-out on what they are capable of. As this happens we sort it out case by case.

If we want to help in a constructive way then have a pick thu the logs for any obvious fixes

[Azunai]

As the problem is low DPS, I would encourage everyone to take another critical look at their character and rotations.

I took a little trip down MMO-champion yesterday. And lo and behold, I found some cool new info:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/998157-The-quot-Fix-my-DPS-quot-Thread?p=14238198&viewfull=1#post14238198

I then took this information to the training dummy and spent ~30-45 minutes working the new rotation, until it's part of my system. I went from ~17-18k to 20-21k DPS selfbuffed, and I haven't even worked in my cooldowns. Took me about an hour alltogether, not including the forum posting.

I'm sure this kind of stuff sounds like a broken record by now, but we're behind our potential (just look up some Baleroc H10 kills, people reach 30k on average on quite a lot of kills) and this is the only way to fix it. And we definetly should, as DPS requirements for the future (until MoP at least) will only be higher. Would be a shame to run into a block midway through Dragon Soul because of this :-(

[hubbah]

thats a pretty big step up torgen, nice!

[Slush]

I went from ~17-18k to 20-21k DPS selfbuffed

Sweet! Go Go. Guys. Read it up.

For this particular fight, I want to say.. The tactics are smooth as silk. We had 1 single try yesterday, and we went straight to enrage timer. That is very nice.

-Movement in and out of Crystal was best.
-Tank managing CDs and staying alive while healers building stacks were best.
-Healers not letting anyone die was also cool.

Now; I want to ask... Is there any particular reason to why Grimnar has to take 20 stacks?
I know Jas is building stacks through TLs soaking... but does he also build up through Grimnars 20? Or would it be cool to start "normal" soaking procedure on 2nd Crystal to maximize Grimnars dps aswell?

[JonnyAppleSeed]

I finish my stack build and move onto the tank after TL ........ I thought it was Puja gaining the benefit from Grim going upto 20

[TeaLeaf]

One point I think we need to work on is closing up the gaps.  We're starting to spread out way too much, despite nagging from me that we are too far apart.   If we stand too far apart everything takes longer to do and we lose more dps time.  We had 1m HP or so left last night on the single pull we had, so less movement combined with decent dps will probably nail it for us (again).

[Slush]

Or is it time to build up a new strat with 2-healing and 3-soaking?

[Niel]

We did the 2 healing and it looked like it was doable for us, i'm sure others have 2 man healed it but i found it a slight mindset change with the decision on when and how much to heal a much harder problem to solve - always bearing in mind the blue mana bar being so easy to blow .....but with practice i'm sure it's a go'er - i must apologise for a few silly mistakes......bad decisions and cock-ups on my part.

The crystal rotations were well handled by the dps and we were well ahead of the enrage so all fine there.

It is obviously subject to RNG as a debuffed healer at any point makes it almost certain of losing one or more during the debuff timer........ when i got debuffed i found it just impossible as the stacks built to keep the person up.

I must apologise to Jesung........his "i'll be alright, i'll not die" did make me think at the time "there's confidence"......... resulting 5 secs later in a small gnome corpse on the floor that was entirely my fault ( little people should need less healing surely )......and it wasn't intentional !!!


Changes for me from the 3 man heal team -

1. Starting a couple of weeks ago i changed my stack building rotation on TL from Healing Surge to Riptide, HW,HW,HW ( the 3rd only if TL was less than max HP as it is of course not boosted in speed or crit )......it is nice and cheap mana wise ( me ending up with 90%-100% mana and 65-75 stacks by the time TL's crystal despawned instead of 35-45% and 75-85 stacks )........which worked fine on with 3 of us healing him............with 2 healers this i quickly found was not enough and switched to ramping it up as TL's stacks built and switching in a GHW instead for one or both of the boosted heals......end result was a little more mana used but a live soaker at the end...........the downside to not using Healing Surge being that i find i am 10-15 stacks less at the same point.......but, with 2 manning it the extra 60% mana remaining is more than needed. And normally i am not straight on the tank and there is plenty of time to top off some more stacks on the next soakers ( i personally don't need Grimnar to go to 20 stacks - happy enough if he drops out earlier and someone else takes a few more stacks at the end )
2. People 3-stacking saved some of the strain but this of course requires more coordination for the dps doing the mad crystal dance and relies on not having a bad roll of the debuff......this definitely helps as it requires less of the costly higher rated heals.
3. Mana regen - should we try this again we should go with an optimised 10 that gives the most options for mana regen.........later on ( when we hit 23% i think at wipe ) the mana pool was empty, potion used and Mana totem on CD, i was scraping by on regen alone which really is not enough..........we didn't have a great chance to try Jas's plan to swap over healing roles at 50%....maybe that is also part of the solution. I recently spec'd in Telluric Currents as many of the hc's are pushing the boundaries on the healer team regarding mana usage ( especially early on as we learn the fight )...but this ofc relies on having some time to dps which is something that 2 man healing provides little of.
4. Biggest lesson - absolutely no mistakes or mis-timing allowed EVER on this one in 2 man ( well...not quite true 100% as when people are low stacked by the debuff you can make small mistakes, but as it builds you gotta get it right as we're only 1 healer at that point + splash aoe healing from the other healer )........it really is like walking a tightrope without a safety net....one mistake and you're doomed........this is something i need to work on, not sure if it was the realisation as we did a few that little mistakes were deadly but i was really concerned about having mana for the whole fight so had a conflict going on that i was looking for the balance for and did not always find....so i made more than my normal level of mistakes as we went on. Most of this is i think just the confidence from practice and whilst paying attention to mana consumption not let it get in the way to the extent that i delayed a needed heal for second too long as i did several times tonight whilst trying to find the balance between mana-efficiency and keeping the target alive.