TCS Launch

[OldBloke]

Gents,

When we launch TCS on Monday the most noticeable change for our PCS regulars will be the dropping of the old boundary rule. This, potentially, will cause the most  debate both on the server and here in the forums. We, as admins, will be called upon to decide if a player has stepped outside of the TCS rules of engagement and act accordingly.

What I'd like to do in the time left before launch is to thrash out/brainstorm/war game/debate some possible scenarios so that we all have a good understanding of the new TCS Rules and how they will dictate the way our members will be allowed to play. For the benefit of the new TCS Admins here are the proposed new Rules/Guidelines:

These rules and guidelines exist to ensure that everyone gets maximum enjoyment from playing TCS. They are not complicated but they do need to be understood and adhered to. Please make sure that you've also read and understood the //TCS%20Introduction.

General Rules

1. Teamplay is mandatory. Frag-hunters, deathmatchers and lone gunmen are not catered for here.
2. All Members must abide by the Member & TCS standards.
3. All Admins must abide by the Admin, Member & TCS standards.
4. All Members must abide by the forum's //Acceptable%20Use%20Policy.
5. Members caught cheating will be banned.

Rules of Engagement

The attacking team has the use of the whole map to achieve the map objective. The defending team has some restrictions imposed upon them:

• Prevent the completion of the map objective!


• Guard the bombsites, hostages or VIP as a team.


• Do not stray from your team unless it is as part of a planned team strategy.

Guidelines

1. Selecting team
When you join a TCS server you should check the scoreboard so that you can join the losing team.  If the scores are level you should join the attacking team. If you've joined the “wrong” team you may be asked to swap teams - please do this as soon as possible, it helps us balance the teams to ensure successful gameplay.

2. Map Change
Swap teams at the map change. If the resulting team-balance is wrong then be prepared for an Admin to re-balance the sides and restart the map. If asked to switch sides then please do!

3. Bomb Carriers
If you are the bomb carrier then plant the bomb! Your team is there to cover you, let them do their job while you do yours. Once the bomb is planted, join in the defense of the target until the bomb explodes. Die there if necessary, but that bomb *must* detonate.

4. Bomb Escort
Escorting the bomb carrier should be a whole team effort. You should not desert the bomb carrier unless it is part of a planned team strategy. While the bomb carrier is planting and vulnerable to assault, make sure that you are covering the entrances to the room/area to protect them. You should be sacrificing yourself to make sure the bomb carrier completes their task and your team completes its objective.

5. Hostage Defense
Preventing hostage rescue is a team effort - no exceptions! Co-ordinate your fire-power and positions and you will reap the rewards.

6. Bombsite Defense
When a bombsite is being attacked then CTs can call for backup. The team members guarding the other unattacked bombsite can then use all available routes to flank the attackers as necessary. However, you should remember that the attack could be a decoy, so don't be too quick to rush to the other bombsite! As the primary CT goal is bombsite protection you will understand that an immediate attempt to flank is not allowed.

7. Bomb Down
On de_ maps if the bomb is 'down' and in view of the CT team then the CT's job switches from guarding the bombsites to guarding the bomb. CTs can converge on the bomb to provide backup using all available routes. If the bomb is then retrieved then the defenders must choose to either continue the engagement or drop back and resume covering the bombsites. Whichever of these two actions is taken, it must be taken as a team.

8. Stealth
Dead men don't wear plaid, but they often know a team-mate who wears clogs! If there's one thing guaranteed to bring the wrath of your team down on your head it's making a noise when everyone else is trying to be quiet or poking your head out when your team are trying to stay hidden. Running, reloading, jumping, firing, grenades etc all make unnecessary noise and will get your team-mates killed. Move quietly where at all possible and stay hidden where necessary!

9. Rushing
If a 'rush' attack is called then it should be as a whole team as it relies on speed and numbers to overpower the enemy. So make sure that when you run you do so holding a knife, a pistol or a grenade (running with rifles/SMGs is slower), preferrably use a buy-script (it gives you more time to think about and discuss strategy) and then move as a team - but take care not to 'block' your team-mates by stopping in doorways or suddenly crouching in the middle of a passageway to start shooting!

10. Freezetime
Make the most of this time to discuss the tactics for the coming round. There is no rule that says you must all rush out of spawn when freezetime ends so plan your strategy as carefully as you can.

11. Use of the AWM Sniper Rifle
Please read this post to fully understand the restrictions regarding the use of this weapon on our servers.

12. Going AFK - Away From Keyboard

Having to go AFK for a time comes to us all. However, it is not acceptable to just message out 'Going AFK' and hope that you can be back before anyone notices. Being AFK at your spawn can completely ruin the round for everyone else. If an Admin is on the server you will be kicked.

If you have to go AFK for more than a few seconds then please follow this procedure. You can do this 'dead or alive'.

• Press your team select key (usually M)


• Select the team you are already on (you 'die' if alive)


• IMPORTANT: DO NOT SELECT A SKIN

While AFK you will no longer spawn (you appear as 'dead' in your teamlist) but you will accumulate cash. When you return simply chose a skin to continue playing.

13. Enjoy
Remember that as a Member of the Dead Men Walking community you are here along with the rest of the community to have fun![/b]

OK. I'll start the ball rolling ...

Let's assume you're the last T on a CS map. The hostages have yet to be 'touched'. Your options are:

• Stay with the hostages
• Take up a strategic position away from the hostages where you can better prevent their rescue

Are they both acceptable under TCS? Should the number of remaining CTs influence the acceptable options?

What other possible scenarios can you come up with that may need to be discussed here?

[Dr Sadako]

OK. I'll start the ball rolling ...

Let's assume you're the last T on a CS map. The hostages have yet to be 'touched'. Your options are:

Stay with the hostages
Take up a strategic position away from the hostages where you can better prevent their rescue

Are they both acceptable under TCS? Should the number of remaining CTs influence the acceptable options?

What other possible scenarios can you come up with that may need to be discussed here?

I think that if we add priorities

1. Team
2. Objective
3. Kills

to the equation we will have some easier choices when we need to decide about a situation. If the T is outnumbered 5-1 I think no. 1 is the most important thing for the T. Save you armour and upgrade your gun if possible. It is more important for the team in my eyes that the surviving T have money enough to donate a gun as he doesn't need to buy armour. Sure he can engage and take out one or two CTs but the objective is lost anyway hence no need to try and save the hostages.
So yes the number of CTs should influence the options imo.

What could be an issue is when Ts go too far away from the hostages. On e.g. Italy the current map boundaries and the addition of allowing the Ts down the middle should be fine. If the Ts are in the market or far down the right towards CT spawn No.2 is lost. Rio is also a tricky map as it is compact and CTs and Ts can engage each other very quickly.

I think that if a T immediately rushes to a forward position (without a team strategy that is) it is obvious he is looking for kills. We should use the current boundaries as guidelines on how far is suitable. I think it would be ok on e.g. Inferno for a CT to go down the right to the hidingspot on the left just before T ramp if he does it over some time but not directly rushing from spawn.

Ok .. I am spamming away here. Will think some more about it, but I think if we just keep the old boundaries in mind together with the list above we should manage 95% of the time.

[Squonk]

Let's assume you're the last T on a CS map. The hostages have yet to be 'touched'. Your options are:

Take up a strategic position away from the hostages where you can better prevent their rescue

If the hossies haven’t been touched (in the safety of the ct's)
I would say its the duty of the T to guard / prevent rescue

Why would he leave them and rush to a position where he THINKS the ct’s might take them this would leave the hossies un guarded

There is always more than 1 way to a rescue point …but if ya mean strategic position as in going to ct spawn and covering that this could lead to peeps hiding/staying alive to be the last then rush to ct spawn

[Anonymous]

I can see where Sadako is coming from here (I think).

I suppose we are asking the following question:

Is it OK to throw away one round for the sake of the overall "map score" i.e. Ts beat CT by 8 rounds to 7 rather than losing 8 to 7 by throwing one round, keeping guns and armour and helping team mates buy gun at round start.

bit of a tricky one to admin though.

[Anonymous]

I suppose we also need to agree on the priorities

Should it be:

 1. Team, Objective, Kills
 2. Objective, Team, Kills
 3. Team, Objective, Enjoyment for all
 4. Objective, Team, Enjoyment for all
 5. or some other list?

Personally, I don't think we should have "Kills" as a priority at all - it could possibly influence the way people act.

My preference would be for number 4 (Objective, Team, Enjoyment for all) as we seem to be saying that the objective is paramount in TCS. If my team dies but we win the round because I protect the hossies (and yes I know it is unlikely scenario of me saving the world but hey this is make believe) then is that better than some of the team surviving but the hossies being rescued? IMHO the hossies should be kept from the CTs at all costs.

//me steps back and waits for more words of wisdom from assembled brethren :-)

[Dr Sadako]

I see now I wasn't clear enough above.

The 1-3 priorities I listed above was meant as a help for us us admins. If we were to present a it to the regular members I would say that only point 1 and 2 are needed and perhaps BBs enjoyment for all.

My point above regarding saving the gun / losing the round is that it is better for the T team if the last T survive. If a lone T is facing 5 CTs he will almost certainly lose the round anyway. Still the T should try and kill as many Ts he can without putting himself in too much danger. If it is possible to stall the CTs and by that saving the round it is all good. But going full throttle when outgunned is just stupid and is not good for the team. Saving the gun and being able to donate a gun next round is better imo.

It should not come to this IF the Ts prioritize their objective, but it will happen from time to time that you are all alone watching a side/flank and the entire team is killed. For those situations we need to have some guidelines to follow.

I agree/understand Squonks post, but consider the following. You are T guarding the right side on Italy. The CTs successfully rush middle or left and take out all Ts but still haven't touched the hostages because they now that there is one T left. If you approach the hostage house from the right side you are an easy target and also a CT could come from the right through the house and attack you from behind. If you switch position by jumping over the fence at the right and moving towards middle you can a) cover middle to spot if CT goes that way with hostages B) hear if ct takes the tunnel c) find a better hidingspot to save the gun. You are not completely abandoning your objective rather evaluating the possibility for completing them without dying.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Sadako@Nov 14 2003, 01:16 PM
Still the T should try and kill as many Ts he can without putting himself in too much danger.

Stryker, Please take note when you are T  

The 1-3 priorities I listed above was meant as a help for us us admins. If we were to present a it to the regular members I would say that only point 1 and 2 are needed and perhaps BBs enjoyment for all.

Ah, I see

My point above regarding saving the gun / losing the round is that it is better for the T team if the last T survive. If a lone T is facing 5 CTs he will almost certainly lose the round anyway. Still the T should try and kill as many Ts he can without putting himself in too much danger. If it is possible to stall the CTs and by that saving the round it is all good. But going full throttle when outgunned is just stupid and is not good for the team. Saving the gun and being able to donate a gun next round is better imo.

Seems sensible and logical. It will take us a little while to get used to admining it and the members a little while to get used to playing it but I can see the benefit of that view.

It should not come to this IF the Ts prioritize their objective, but it will happen from time to time that you are all alone watching a side/flank and the entire team is killed. For those situations we need to have some guidelines to follow.

Agreed.

I agree/understand Squonks post, but consider the following...

I feel that this would all become easier for us as admins if we define/agree what exactly is the "Spirit of TCS". Once we agree on that we can always admin with it in mind. If a move can be viewed as being made in the "Spirit of TCS" then it should be allowed. until we define what this is then we will have to treat every event on an individual basis.

(having just read all that it doesn't make as much sense as I wanted it to but hopefully you'll get my drift?)

[Anonymous]

I suppose one of the indicators of whether a move is legit or not is how a players fellow team members view it. If a guy is last T alive and doesn't plant bomb because he tries to survive for next round to pass on guns then that could be viewed as good. However, if his teammates are screaming out for him to plant the bomb because they all feel that they have enough cash to buy their own guns then he is gonna get a hard time next round.

This comes down to knowing how your team is doing. There have been many times when I have called that I am ecoing and have thought that the rest of the team would be in a similar position only to find that half a dozen guys offer to buy me a gun!  I think what I am trying to say is that you can never be sure if you are doing the right thing when you decide to go for team rather than objective.

Having just had this come to mind, I think that it will make me go for "Objective" over "Team" every time TBH.

thoughts???

[Gandalf]

I'm all for the "ok, this is a lost cause. Scavange a decent weapon and hide!"

We do this quite a bit as CT on a defuse map once the bomb is planted and there is no chance of reaching it in time. Why not for the hossie maps. TBH, it'll be a really rare occurance on hossie maps as they are usually guarded well and it's rare to have one to many attackers on these maps.

[Dr Sadako]

Originally posted by BlueBall@Nov 14 2003, 03:15 PM
I suppose one of the indicators of whether a move is legit or not is how a players fellow team members view it. If a guy is last T alive and doesn't plant bomb because he tries to survive for next round to pass on guns then that could be viewed as good. However, if his teammates are screaming out for him to plant the bomb because they all feel that they have enough cash to buy their own guns then he is gonna get a hard time next round.

This comes down to knowing how your team is doing. There have been many times when I have called that I am ecoing and have thought that the rest of the team would be in a similar position only to find that half a dozen guys offer to buy me a gun! I think what I am trying to say is that you can never be sure if you are doing the right thing when you decide to go for team rather than objective.
 

I think saving the gun option is (almost) only valid for defending team. As T on a de map you should always try and plant the bomb if possible. If the bomb is down and a hoard of CTs guard it then the wear down tactic apply ( http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=389 ). If time is short and there is no way to plant the bomb or kill all CTs then I say it is valid to go save the gun.

[smilodon]

This may be taking objective based CS a bit to far but....

Should players fight as if there are additional rounds at all? If we assume there is no next round (i.e no gun or life to preserve) then each round would a be a totally objective based event. A T would attack five CT's in the tiny hope of killing them all. A do or die attitude that would more accurately mirror a real life situation.

I can see a million slightly different situations with no clear best action for them all. No one is going to agree every time, and we're therefore going to be inconsistent as Admins no matter how hard we try. Someone is always going to disagree with us. It might just be easier to say

"TCS rounds are played as isolated events (in so doing they mirror real life combat situations) and tactics should not include actions based on the assumption of there being 'another round and "another go'."

[Squonk]

Originally posted by smilodon@Nov 14 2003, 06:01 PM

"TCS rounds are played as isolated events (in so doing they mirror real life combat situations) and tactics should not include actions based on the assumption of there being 'another round and "another go'."

i think that was what i was trying to say

in a real life event of say some T's going to plant a bomb it would always be a do or die thing the same with gaurding hossies they would fight to tthe death..iam sure (tho i aint no T ) it would be no good running off and saving ya AK  to get back to the big boss man and say well guv i lost the hossies BUT look i have me ak...

what iam trying to say is what smilo said ...err i think

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by OldBloke@Nov 14 2003, 11:34 AM
OK. I'll start the ball rolling ...

Let's assume you're the last T on a CS map. The hostages have yet to be 'touched'. Your options are:

• Stay with the hostages


• Take up a strategic position away from the hostages where you can better prevent their rescue

Are they both acceptable under TCS? Should the number of remaining CTs influence the acceptable options?

What other possible scenarios can you come up with that may need to be discussed here?[/b]

Well I guess in all this excitement we have forgotten to discuss the point Oldie originally raised  

I guess no hard and fast answer (again). I can see situations where 1 on 1 it makes sense to back off and cover (office) as the Hossies are spread apart but by the same argument you could stay near them (in between).

If, as has been mentioned, we play each round in isolation then saving up guns and going way out doesn't make sense. If we are looking at the map time overall and taking all rounds into account then sometimes it will make sense to back off.

My 2p worth is that you should stay near the hossies (NB near and not necessarily in same room - being on roof in assault is a good place as you can cover all exits)

[OldBloke]

Originally posted by smilodon@Nov 14 2003, 06:01 PM
This may be taking objective based CS a bit to far but....
 

Works for me.

But only because I will try everything possible to complete my objective. The next round will be the very last thing that i'd consider whilst playing TCS.

To try and answer the question : 'What is the spirit of TCS and how can you admin it?"

The way I tend to apply my judgement is to reverse the question and say "If that wasn't deathmatch it must have been TCS." It may have been poor TCS and a quiet word in someone's ear may be needed to help them improve their play but if they weren't frag-hunting (and not obviously playing the fool) then it was TCS.

To answer my own question posed at the start of this topc ...

If I were the last T and I was faced with a single opponent I would most probably remain in the vicinity of the hostages to try and prevent their rescue. However, if I were outnumbered then based on factors such as time remaining, my health, my knowledge of their positions etc I would probably try to withdraw to a good location where I could hopefully better prevent the rescue. Both tactics are TCS.

Debate-on my lovelies  

[SLoWHaND]

I guess that as a TCS game all rounds should be treated as seperate "GAMES"

But if this was really the case I think you may have to revise the start money situation at the start of every round.

Then people wouldnt have to "save" the gun etc and could play the round out to its natural conclusion.

SLoWHaND