So very tired.....

[TeaLeaf]

....of all this administrative bullshit.   I'd love to know the agenda they are running to.    Jas, I'm a convert to the theory you described last night and would love to know what they wish the end game to be.

At the end of the day, we play this game to have fun and to have such immense degrees of crap posted about me, you, Penfold, Smilodon and the whole DMR Council just leaves me with the feeling that we should hand them a few knives and leave them in the arena to fight to the death amongst themselves.   It makes me feel that the efforts I put into this guild have been so very worthwhile.

I'm truly staggered by the lies/misinformation posted and it's been a real effort not to touch any of the Ban or Moderation buttons throughout this process.  It just makes me want to go do something more fun with my time.

Bullcrap like this is a young man's game and I'm getting too old for this........

[JonnyAppleSeed]

Its it

A..... They are off to make a guild alone
B..... They are standing up for Niel as hes a good friend ie want him back

Im more edging towards B with the style of the slush post but again if people will not talk we cant do anything about it

I need to get to work but we should have a chat later how we move forward.

[smilodon]

IMHO we (you all) push Team-Speak as the place to discuss problems and issues.

WOW is our only really competitive game that demands a high level of expertise and co-operative play. So it's going to get more than it's fair share of issues. I can run about in Arma playing like a complete pillock and all I'll get it people laughing at me. But in WOW you have to perform or get called out for it. That's always going to create more 'events' like this. Plus I do think you had a clique within a guild for a while, which was the catalyst for most of your issues. That little group has moved on and hopefully with it the drama.

Ironically it might be good to run with Slush's rant thread and keep feeding reasoned and controlled responses. As long as no one feels it's got too personal again.

[TeaLeaf]

The major frustration for me at the moment is feeling that I am not able to defend myself (for fear of being seen as abusing admin powers by deleting a thread, or getting involved with a public flame war) - hence I have been very careful to not do any moderation myself and have left it to others to act as they see fit.  I know many of the points in Slush's post have been flatly contradicted already, but I really hate the fact that I feel I cannot defend myself and need others to do it for me, whereas in reality I want to slam dunk him into the middle of next week and kick/ban him.   But I know that would be unbecoming of an admin, so I'll simmer some more about the very personal comments he has made and continue to rely on others for defence.

[Penfold]

Agreed.

You're in an insidious position but you have little choice but to sit back.

I've gone all power crazed and have made an ultimatum to all concerned. May be a little OTT but time to move this on.

PS. I've obviously had to make it aimed at everybody

[TeaLeaf]

Slush pops onto forum and reads the thread.
Slush then immediately sends PM to Neil, who is reading it now.

Oh the tangled webs that are weaved, it makes me just want to kick. :angry:

[Michelanio]

I really can't blame you TL this whole ordeal is just a pain in the a** and ye I might only be 22 and don't really have that much experience but I can't believe how people can be so retarded :angry:

[Penfold]

Slush pops onto forum and reads the thread.
Slush then immediately sends PM to Neil, who is reading it now.

Oh the tangled webs that are weaved, it makes me just want to kick. :angry:

Aye, I saw that. :ranting2:

[JonnyAppleSeed]

Im trying to look at it from both ends ....Slush has managed to get himself in the tangled mess that Niel made. From the outside I can see he has some half valid issues but only due to him not getting the full facts. Possibly even being fed the wrong facts.
Fully agree with you TL as you and the restraint you have shown has been epic tbh.

If i could find a good thing to come from this i would say it shows how passionate people are about the game and how much they do enjoy it here most of the time. If people didn't like it they would leave without fuss or a single rant post "jinx for example".

One thing I have yet to see is Niel actualy taking you up on your offer to talk about his rant. He's backed himself into such a corner that Smilo's intervention was like a ray of sunshine to a guy that kinda thinks "I have been a bit of a plonker but im too proud to back down as its all got too big"

So much for work today "cough , sneaze, dribble"

Ps Good work on the post from sharpe about a web cam very speedy

[JonnyAppleSeed]

I want to close the whole thing down with this last PM... If anyone wants to add anything ill be sending it after the raid tonight

Hi Jas, ( Penfold/Smilodon ...CCing you in as this time i am trying to do it right and behave....and again my apologies for about the 15th time... )

I and you know i can't directly see the DMR sub forum.......but you will of course realise that i am made aware of what is posted in there and this puzzles me.

There is a constant referral to things i posted as a "rage post" ( as if i was of unsound mind ) because i was "attacking" someone in public........yet TL's post where he put the boot in ( with twisted facts ) is not a "rage post" even though he was quite clearly attacking me in public....go figure :eyebrow:

Now, i know my posts were definitely "tasty" in part and i meant them that way, especially the last one as i had decided that someone needed a lesson in putting the boot in and it was rightly deleted as it should have been by the lovely Smilodon who has been the picture of impartiality along with Penfold throughout this silly saga ( though i am pretty sure he has turned the air blue a few times when he has been dragged into action to referee the "children" ) ........but my point was in the first instance how people are treated by a certain person ( for whom yourself and the other DMR officers are falling over yourselves to accommodate his "special ways" so long as they are not directed at you ....and you yourself admitted during our TS discussion that TL most definitely does have "special ways" and comes across as rude and abrupt on many occasions ) and then subsequently i was not happy with his far from the truth post on the DMR sub forum.......and in between our pleasant'ish 20 minutes or so conversation ended in a frosty final 5 seconds when your final request was clear.

Lot of twisting and turning going on and i will confirm for you in case you are unsure -i had nothing to do with Slush's post.......however he is accused of twisting the facts of matters he does not have full awareness of - which is true....he was not fully aware of dealings in the background, he had not asked me and i had not told him, i am not going to criticise his motives though as they were genuine - and then in your reply to him you definitely twist the facts of matters that you are fully aware of - as you are referring to a conversation between myself and you that i can remember clear as day.

I wish to raise a point regarding your recent reply to Slush - an unfortunate post and one i was too late in stopping even if i could- and i would have stopped it if i could have - he sent me a PM saying he was going to post something but by the time i saw and replied to it to advise against it...it was too late.

However, there is one part i really don't like amongst a pile of, in my opinion, half-truths and untruths.........and i quote your post:- " He quit TS and removed all toons in as big a rage as you would want to hear." This is simply not true and i really don't like this being posted there in this way. We had a nice pleasant conversation and it all went wrong when you said "Well...what i want you to do is apologise for tonight".......i was staggered for a couple of seconds and my reply was ( probably with some annoyance in my voice "You'll have my answer to that in about two minutes" and i left TS....logged into WoW and removed all my chars from DMR.............certainly not "in as big a rage as you want to hear".

What is really bugging me is this constant attempt to undermine anything i have had to say with "rage".....dirty tactics Jas and i'm not a fan and nobody that was present the night i quit the raid is fooled by it and this kind of thing is annoying them as much it is me........there's a constant denial of anything said/done wrong by TL even though the witnesses present at the time confirm it and agree with my actions at the time ( apart from yourself, Whytee, Hal who i am guessing somehow heard nothing untoward )......then there is the constant undermining and attempts to turn it into something else and it was "Niel's bad day of rage". More damage is being done by the dirty tricks and misrepresentation after the event than the event itself....not just in my eyes - other people are reporting to me their disgust. People are so annoyed i have nearly half the RGT raid independently sending me the details of what is going on in the DMR forum because they are not happy about it and how i have been/am being stitched-up.

Seems to me that the mission on the side of DMR officers is that "if you throw mud for long enough eventually it will stick" - whether this is an official or a sub-consciously directed mission i don't know..

In reality it seems that my situation has unplugged not just unhappiness with my treatment and the trawl of twists and misquotes made by the TL and now yourself......it is hard to fool people who were actually present last week as to the reason why i actually left the raid when the majority of those present agreed with my action.......but others have their own concerns that have been sitting hidden and they genuinely are thinking "me next" and they see no protection whatsoever from any structure in DMR or DMW........ it is very simple as it is "disagree with us and you are out......but we are all very democratic with a smiley face so long as you do as we say"...........i'm making a joke of it but i am being absolutely serious, this i how it is and how you and the other officers represent yourself in the way you act.

Anyway, do not worry for now as i am taking it up with you in private and trying to not generate more smoke from the situation on the forum.

I will of course be monitoring what is said about me and if i see anything that i consider to be dirty tricks or misinformation i'm not going to be too pleased.......i have tried to calm people down that are annoyed on my behalf ( and are also unhappy with how what happened to me could easily happen to them ) and asked people not to leave the guild and i think it is time it was put to bed.......but please do not attempt to bury me as part of any tactic of making it go away in a forum that i cannot respond on. Any more "twisted truths" on the DMR forum regarding myself WILL get a response from me on the main forum again as that is the only place open to me to do so.

Just remember - private forums are only as private as the readers of that forum make it........luckily for me most of the people who are close to the events are not buying into the smokescreen of misinformation being kicked out in an attempt to make the "management" look good and great guys and me look like a mental cripple with "rage" issues..........what is being peddled against me is neither fair nor true.

Shame it came to this but it did - its not fixable so time to make the best of what's left and move on.

Hopefully PM'ing about this stupid situation for the last time having just wasted another hour and a half of my life on this.....apologies for bad spelling and grammar ...it is late.

Regards

Niel

Niel

Thanks for taking your issues up in privet. If this route was taken in the first place i believe we could have a different outcome to the whole thing. As it is now with the stuff posted and splashed around forums I am in agreement its not fixable for the near future. Yes its a huge shame and not what any of us actually wanted.

You picked up the point about "Rage" If you feel that's not what happened then see it from my side. You first bang horns with TL in the raid and leave the raid. Ok we have an issue where what was said has wound you up. Its not a good situation but from time to time it happens in a pressured game environment the problem being you now just left 9 people who were happy..unhappy. Also it stalled the raid wasting peoples time.

After the raid we talked and I was looking to salvage something from what was already 1 non-rage. You even said to me that you had hit the limit and popped (i cant remember your exact words but you mentioned it in your first post) I felt you being able to vent frustrations to me would help diffuse the situation. Hand on heart i thought you had some valid points that could be looked into. My request for you post an apology was *only* for leaving the raid. The argument that went on i felt would need yourself and TL to deal with in a privet manner. The problem i had was what you did next......

In that frosty 5 secs "You'll have my answer to that in about two minutes" and i left TS....logged into WoW and removed all my chars from DMR"  That Niel is possibly the most perfect definition of a rage quit. See it from my side. I have gone on ts to try and calm the waters, I have tried to hand out an olive branch to try and get this sorted and i get snubbed for it. If you had not done your non-rage quit or whatever we want to call it you would have had the rest of my request to take it up in a privet manner. The next thing that happened was a post from you regarding leaving the guild. The ironic part was you did exactly what i asked you did indeed say sorry for leaving the raid. If you had stopped at that point we would have had something to work with but its seemed you wanted to throw some muck around yourself . Your knee jerk reaction was to blame me for you leaving the guild for an unaceptable request........ Err no.. you managed that yourself with your non-rage

You talk about people having "special ways" we all have them.. We have some very interesting characters in the guild most I like some i don't. The fact being i don't air my frustration in public. Yes TL can be taken as abrupt, sarcastic, rude. We all can. The point for me is that I know hes not a nasty person and is more than gutted at himself if he upsets people.  

There seems to be a message of Us vs You as in we are ganging up. Again it comes from misinformation what you are possibly not aware of is the efforts the officers/admins have put in to try and resolve this. Believe it or not even after all the crap that's flown under the bridge even now we still look at it from both sides.


My personal feeling is its all blown out of proportion. The problem being its difficult to forget what has been said. I am sad others have decided to get involved in a tangled mess but as you said we aint kids and people need to take responsibly for themselves

[Penfold]

His comment:

I will of course be monitoring what is said about me and if i see  anything that i consider to be dirty tricks or misinformation i'm not  going to be too pleased.

but please do not attempt to bury me as part of any tactic of making it  go away in a forum that i cannot respond on. Any more "twisted truths"  on the DMR forum regarding myself WILL get a response from me on the  main forum again as that is the only place open to me to do so.

makes out there's a conspiracy against him. I would jump on that. Actually, he's almost become secondary to the whole thing now.

I'm going to send him a PM back (as he CC'd me) saying that you're handling it but reiterating my point that I'm calling a day on it and am not prepared to let it go on anymore.

Thanks

[Penfold]

My reply

----------------
Hi Niel,

You point exactly illustrates my frustration with this  whole thing. EVERYONE is being accused of posting half-truths and  misconceptions / miscontrued facts. Which is why the whole thing need to  be stopped.

I'm not going to reply to this in full as it really doesn't concern me - I'll leave that to JAS.

However, I do find your comment

Just remember - private forums are only as private as the readers of  that forum make it........luckily for me most of the people who are  close to the events are not buying into the smokescreen of  misinformation being kicked out in an attempt to make the "management"  look good and great guys and me look like a mental cripple with "rage"  issues..........what is being peddled against me is neither fair nor  true.

personally quite insulting as Smilo and myself have done everything we can to make this open and honest. Thanks for that.

That said, I've posted this in open forum and I'll post it here for you now so it's clear to all.

........The original disagreement has now become  secondary and is lost in this sea of half-truths, rumour and hearsay.  This helps nobody.

For the sake of the others in DMR and for the wider community. This ends and it ends today and everyone moves on.

If ANYONE - and I don't particularly care on what side of the fence  you're sitting - feels they can't move on then feel free to move out.

Please feel free to PM me (CC'ing Smilo) with your abuse to tell me how  undemocratic I'm being but I'm looking to our Wider Community as a  whole.

There has been nothing on the forum as yesterday and as far as I'm concerned everyone has had the say and counter-say.

Smilo and I will be carefully watching the forums and will jump on ANY post by ANYBODY which inflames this again.

I  can't help what's happened and if other DMR'ers feel they need to join  you and leave then so be it. What I will not accept is ongoing and  continued sniping complaints and counter-complaints. We've all got FAR  better things to be doing with our time.



--------


OK?

[TeaLeaf]

Of course the 'rude & abrupt' doesn't apply to Niel or the amazing comments he posted in the healer channel earlier that evening.   Superb double standards.

[Penfold]

Yes indeed.

It seems to have calmed down a bit and I'm still very much hovering over the ban hammer should anyone inflame it again.

I told Niel in no uncertain terms that I'm not going to let this go on ad infinitum and that if I need to start temporarily banning people I will. We're not having 100's of members put out by a few persistent, and frankly, irritating complainants.

I see Slush has started posting normally now so we may be getting somewhere.

[Penfold]

Also, sorry if anyone feels we (Smilo or I) are encroaching on your domain - TL, Hal, Whitey and JAS in particular.
 
I just think it needed someone outside of DMR to step in.

Chin up my Pixie friends