Evolution

[Anonymous]

Forgive me if I misinterpret Mats but from your post in the other thread my understanding is that one of the big probs is people who make themselves avail and then can't be found.

If I'm correct then it would appear to me that this is the issue we really need to address. The avail page is an excellent system and, if used properly by clan members, should make things workable for the SLs.

I do remember the odd occasion where there has been poor avail for a match but usually there are more names than slots available (IIRC)

Are we really addressing the issue or are we skirting round it? Are the regular match players sick of turning up for all the matches for the clan or are they quite happy getting all the matches they want? If they are happy getting all the matches they want then the issue must be availability so lets address that.

As to "spring cleaning" the Charlie Group we have:

Admins
DogMeat
Gandalf-LordOfJelly
OldBloke
Stryker
TeaLeaf

dMw Admins
albert
Dr Sadako
FatBob
Gh0st Face Killah  
JonnyAppleSeed
smite
squonk

TCS Admins
BlueBall
Doorman
smilodon

Charlie Company
Aga  
Armitage  
Benny  
ChimpBoy  
DarkAngel  
DonkeyCheeseGrater  
Doris
DuVeL
FATAL  
FBG    
FrEnZy  
Ice Hawk  
Jamoe    
JB    
MAD_ness  
MisterEggs  
Niel  
Rad_Man  
Red_Thunder    
ScraT  
SecretSquirrel  
sheepy  
Swiss  
target  
tugs
TuToNiC
Vincentvega  
whitey
Zok

I think that OB and TL would have to look through the avail database (we can't see the historical entries) to cross check who makes themselves available and maybe make a Red, Amber, Green list of activity.

However, I still think that if avail is used properly then it doesn't matter whether you are an avid match player or not. All that matters is that you use the damn page and stand by your commitment to play if you make one.

I think that people who are not active in dMw for a period should become Shadows (painful though it may be). After a further period they should automatically become Bravos unless the clan is notified of a reason for lack of activity - someone moving house and it takes ages to sort internet access or extended illness or whatever.

This is turning into quite a discussion  :ph34r:

[Dr Sadako]

Originally posted by BlueBall@Dec 29 2004, 11:58 AM
Forgive me if I misinterpret Mats but from your post in the other thread my understanding is that one of the big probs is people who make themselves avail and then can't be found.

If I'm correct then it would appear to me that this is the issue we really need to address. The avail page is an excellent system and, if used properly by clan members, should make things workable for the SLs.

Yes this have been a problem of late imho. I know I have been chasing players for charlie (zombie and other squads) matches and delta matches. First I have tried to hunt down players that have put them down as avail. Using mainly gametiger, MSN, and friends to locate them. When I haven't found them I have asked non-available and maybe that have been playing on our or other servers. On many occations I have asked player that I for sure knew "were on a break" to play as they were the only ones I could get hold of. So the avaíl system hasn't been used correctly imho.

[Squonk]

I've reread the thread. (waiting for kids to get up.... idle gits)

The first two points oldie addressed i think most of us agree with (those that have posted)
1 Move over to CZ keeping one cs server.

2 Invite to Charlie.

Moving on to players avil and match playing as i see it we have 3 groups
non players/play occasionally /main match players.

Looking at the stats pages this is how it looks to me.

Dont Play

DogMeat
Gandalf-LordOfJelly
Stryker
TuToNiC
tugs
Swiss
SecretSquirrel
Rad_Man
MisterEggs
DonkeyCheeseGrater
Flibber Meister
Smilodon
Doorman


Play occasionally

Albert
ChimpBoy
FATAL
Armitage
FatBob
Benny
Gh0st Face Killah
JB
Target
Sheepy
0ni0n
BlueBall
Niel
Doris
Jamoe
Target


Main match players

Sadako
Smite.Thee
Squonk
MAD_ness
FrEnZy!
DuVeL
DarkAngel
OldBloke
Red
Ice Hawk
JonnyAppleSeed
TeaLeaf
VincentVega
Whitey
zok

So if the last group of players was split into two, we could keep 4 squads. This would mean the two main match playing squads would nearly always get a team as these are the players avil more than most to play.

Just thinking out loud  

[JonnyAppleSeed]

If we are low on players for a match I have been known to turn to "shadow" people and ask if they would be ok to play ...I would not want to loose that option by putting them in Bravo

[OldBloke]

I started this thread by asking for the problems to be defined. I'm not entirely convinced we've achieved that. Taking the three bullet points in order.

1. How will we know when it's time to move away from CS/CZ/CS:S? Are we seeing the signs of that day approaching now and will we be acting too late if we fail to recognise those signs in time? Is the lack of match availability a sign? Are the servers less active and, if so, is that a sign? Do members prefer to play public with BoD than TCS? Do we have a problem here?

2. Charlie membership applications by invite. Why? What's the problem with the current method? How would moving to an invitation model help? Surely we'd still get the people we want using either method. Wouldn't we?

3. Why are we focussing on matches and availability? It has absolutely nothing to do with being a Charlie ...

A member of Charlie Company is *not* just a match-playing Bravo. No way. TeaLeaf and I are happy to apply the 'no problem' rule to Bravo applicants but Charlie membership requires a much stricter set of criteria. This is why there is a mandatory two-month probation period for all new Charlie members to make sure that they are made of the 'right stuff'. During those two month we, as admins, will make sure that we monitor them closely, provide coaching/training/advice where necessary and provide feedback on their performance. Anyone not coming up to scratch will be bounced back to Bravo.

Charlie members must be made of the 'right stuff'. Whether they play matches or not is, IMHO, immaterial. And for those that do wish to represent dMw in matches we have the availability pages to organise that. Where's the problem? Bouncing people to Shadow or even Bravo helps how?

OK. I've played Devil's advocate to some extent and certainly asked more questions. But again I ask ... where's the problem?

Is it a feeling of dilution? A loss of identity? Do you resent the Bravos wearing the tag? At the end of the day we have an inner circle within dMw. Friends old and new. Many from the early days of LAN 1 and I'm sure a few wishing we were still a small group of aging gamers enjoying each other's company. But we've evolved and created a community out of the desire of others to feel part of what we represent. Because, make no mistake, we are the best.

[Squonk]

OK
yes i do resent the Bravos wearing the -=[dMw]=- tag. This Tag means a lot to me, the friends i have. The way i play. To alot of the bravo's and some charlies i would guess it means nothing just a tag

So again yes i do feel we have lost our identity.

So this must mean iam one of the peeps that still wish we were still a small group of aging gamers enjoying each other's company.

Invite only why? Because when one of our trusted admins/friends (how ever we see each other) comes to us with a name of a person who they think would be a good addition to the dmw way we can be sure or near as damm it this person is gonna be a credit to dmw.

System for match playing peeps amonst us..iam still thinking  

I for one and i know iam not alone, look on our servers and if there arnt peeps we know/want to play with then tbh i dont join..sometimes i join an empty server hoping that those that i want to play with join and not a lot of bravos who always push the tcs way to the limit and not to mention the omg/wtf/ffs/i got 10 health etc etc etc they type.

Maybe it is time to look at another game ..keep CZ but lets find out what esle we all want to play..I for one havnt got many games but if you all decide to start playing BF then i can be sure i will be out too the shops and buy it ..as iam not really botherd what game i play just as long as i play with you lot.

if you wasnt looking for honesty then plz delete this post as ive just made a fool of meself

Steve

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by squonk@Dec 29 2004, 04:01 PM
if you wasnt looking for honesty then plz delete this post as ive just made a fool of meself

Steve

[post=73313]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

We are always looking for honesty.  The only fool is one who is not true to himself.

TL.

[Dr Sadako]

Originally posted by OldBloke+Dec 29 2004, 05:26 PM-->

QUOTE(OldBloke @ Dec 29 2004, 05:26 PM)

I started this thread by asking for the problems to be defined. I'm not entirely convinced we've achieved that. Taking the three bullet points in order.

1. How will we know when it's time to move away from CS/CZ/CS:S? Are we seeing the signs of that day approaching now and will we be acting too late if we fail to recognise those signs in time? Is the lack of match availability a sign? Are the servers less active and, if so, is that a sign?
[/b]

I think it is time to move away from CS as our main game. It is evident that we have lots of regulars playing CZ and less playing CS. I think the move to CZ is something we should do asap.

Originally posted by OldBloke+Dec 29 2004, 05:26 PM-->

QUOTE(OldBloke @ Dec 29 2004, 05:26 PM)

Do members prefer to play public with BoD than TCS? Do we have a problem here?
[/b]

Yes I think we have a problem here. Let's face the facts CS isn't played on our servers. Still we have 2 servers running. Source is still in it's cradle but there is not enough players to justify a TCS Source password protected server. Maximum number of people being on at the same time? 8? 10? Most of the time it just sits empty. When source is good enough I think we could consider supporting it. Right now?  Not a chance.

I know way back that some were very reluctant to even set up one CZ server for testing purposes as it would drive people away from TCS. Now with 3 games (at a time even 4 games) and 5 servers, that is ok? I don't think it is working at least.

My suggestion would be to have 3 servers.

TCZ Meathook
TCZ Razer Public Stats server
TCZ Baldric Match Server

I know that the stats server will hurt your eyes and shake your foundations but face it we are struggling to get a full server. If we could steal a bit of the competition from the BoD server I think that is a good idea.

I'd rather have Doris, Hippy, DuVeL, Ice etc statswhore on our server and populate it instead of having them at the BoD server. We need to show there are players on our servers for more than 2 hours per evening. If I understand it correctly you can decide how the stats points are awarded so why not increase the points for completing the objectives and reduce the points for kills. I know it is not in line with TCS but it is a good alternative to the loss of players we currently have. This should be a public server with NO restrictions in regard to public play irrespectively if they are TCS players or not. If they want restrictions they will play on our TCZ server. I know I do at least.

We have over 500 registered forum users and 40+ charlies and still we don't manage to fill up our servers. BoD has barely 100 forum users (of which dMw constitutes a considerable part) and have 5000+ players on per month ... imagine that on one of our servers.
If even only 0.1% of those 5000+ were interested in in TCZ we would have 5 new TCZ player per month. I think the price of one public CZ server is worth that.

[Doorman]

I'm with you Steve in fact if I can refer you to the post I made earlier in this thread it more or less says the same thing. Read it again as I think it got overlooked before. Save you scrolling back

[smilodon]

I think it's crucial that we define what a Charlie Member is as we seem to have no clear consensus at the moment. And this is causing most of our problems. When we decide whether a Charlie is a match playing member of the dMw community or whether they are a senoir member of the same, or both, then we can decide how to organise them and how to select them. Lets agree what a Charlie is first.


As an additional note and sticking my neck out here, I honestly think we have allowed some real rubbish into the Charlie ranks in recent months and we're paying the price. It's a horrible thing to say but while I'm happy to share a forum and servers with them I don't feel they are part of that 'inner circle'  so increasingly  consider myself a TCS Admin more than anything else. There was a time when Clan membership was what it was all about. It was those original dMw guys I liked talking to and playing with on the PCS servers. Under the new community structure that group re-identified itself as Charlie Squad and I wanted to be part of that. Now though Charlie Squad no longer defines that group. With the exception of a handful of Charlie members, that core group of like minded folk are now identified by their admin and TCS admin badge.

I'd still argue we need both a means of identifying the 'Old School' and of identifying 'Match Players'. There is a distinct difference that Charlie Squad no longer defines. Of course this is totally elitist and I make no appology for that. I'd suggest it's the people in this community that make us want to part of it rather than the games we play. I'd still be dMw if we played multiplayer Myst (well maybe not but you get my point    )

[OldBloke]

Originally posted by Dr Sadako@Dec 29 2004, 05:41 PM
... Why do we have shadow, ghost, zombie at all or certain match days for that matter? Sorry but you really lost me on that one.
Let the flaming begin.

[post=73324]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

Because, after careful analysis of people's availability, we determined that to offer everyone at least one match per week we would need to run three squads playing on the days they do. This was, of course, based on those people that actually wanted to play matches.

As an exercise, that could probably do with running again as people's circumstances do change.

As a tool for selection though, I think we would be hard pressed to improve on it. If people keep their availability current and remember to request a squad change if their circumstances dictate a change is required, then the 'one match per week' idea should work.

[smite]

Whilst i am just downloading and installing SP2 on the father-in-laws new pc i will make my reply.


My True and Honest oppinion:

I liked dMw in the early days, there were only 13 of us and it was good to be part of what i classed a very good clan NOT for being good shots or good match players but an excellent bunch of people. That is what i wanted to be part of but the more people we have in the more that feeling of being part of something (or special) gets diluted.
Therefore for me the -=dMw=- tag doesn't feel comfortable anymore.
You may have noticed that i play under another name most of the time and i can't honestly tell you why.

I am still here as i still want to be part of the small group that are the original members.......... which is the reason i will not join any of our servers without the likes of squ0nk/Oldie etc.. already playing on it.... and the only reason i play CS if it wasn't for these original members i wouldn't play CS at all.




Match play:
I don't really care what day aslong as i get to play alongside the people i know and like ...yes this is linked exactly to the section above.
I don't want to play with idiots who just look after themselves.

The main reason for my dislike of our match play system is the hoping to get picked for a game. now this may seem a little strange as when i turn up on a thursday and set as availible i will 99% of the time get a game but i would like to know that i AM going to play at least a day before .....yes it is petty and no i don't have anyway to put it right but this is just how i feel about it......


This is a frank and honest oppinion ... please don't kick me in the nuts for it.

If it doesn't make a lot of sense my appologies as it was a little rushed.

[Anonymous]

Makes perfect sense Smite. As TL mentioned earlier it was honest opinion that was asked for so I doubt anyone will kick you in the nuts for it

However, my feelings are slightly damaged as I am only member number 43 :lmfao:  :narnar:

[Doorman]

Originally posted by BlueBall@Dec 31 2004, 02:24 PM
Makes perfect sense Smite. As TL mentioned earlier it was honest opinion that was asked for so I doubt anyone will kick you in the nuts for it

However, my feelings are slightly damaged as I am only member number 43 :lmfao: :narnar:

[post=73481]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

As member 55 I know that I, along with your good self, number in that 13. Post TCS is the cutoff point I think he's driving at.

[DogMeat]

 I liked the old days, I did.  You played because you liked the people and had some good laughs.  Then TCS came along and made things better - it was the style of play that attracted like-minded players and made the games even better.

Once we went competitive, i.e. leagues and ladders, I found myself enjoying the games less and less.  Whether through skill or dodgy practices, match after match just became one long unpleasant experience after another.

Then came the big changeover; recruit/draft the best players to play in the competitions and sort of leave everything else to sort itself out by committee and squads - which it sort of did. (I'd pretty much given up by this time,BTW).

Now it seems to be time for another changeover.

I'd probably play more often if the servers were busy more often (scores 1 point for stating the bleeding obvious), so long as i didn't feel obligated to have to play competitively purely because I happen to be available.  It's no coincidence that no team I have ever played on has ever won anything of significance - either online or at the LANs.

If you're going to continue with competitive play, you need to separate it totally from TCS.  While TCS play imposes the qualities required for good teamplay and provides a great way to spot, train and recruit players, once they make the competitive teams, there should be a separate competition management structure.  One which allows the team leaders to hire and fire (figuratively speaking) without feeling obligated to the players for reasons of history or the number of LANs attended.

Not that this will affect me in the slightest, other than I might be avaiable for slaughtering more often than now.  What a pleasing prospect.

D "yes, nurse" M