Evolution

[OldBloke]

Fellow admins,

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

With that in mind ... what's 'broke'? Is the community failing you.

From the recent posts I take it that there are three main areas for debate:

• Has CS (in all it's guises) become boring and should we be looking to adopt other multiplayers?
• Should Charlie membership be by invitation only?
• Is it necessary to distinguish between match-players and non match-players?

Debate started.

[smite]

First of all No i dont have any internet yet just friends who let me use there pc whilst they're not looking.

CS is now Dull ...i like the simplicity of it but the maps, guns effects etc kill it.

Yes Charlie should be invite only.

Match players should have a different tag to community players.

IMHO


I will return in a few days when someone allows me my tipple of net

[Anonymous]

My 2p:

The community is not failing me

CS isn't broke it's just that we have too many versions, many of the community are playing CZ or CS:S and very few, if any, want to play CS1.6. However, playing CZ or CS:S on the same old CS1.6 maps is starting to get a bit boring. We need some good quality TCS style maps as a splurge of freshness

Yes, Charlie should be by invitation only. A proposal and seconder should nominate someone.

A match player should be a Charlie a non-match player should be a Bravo (that is the only real diff as far as I can tell) -> Problem, what do you do with people like me, Ron and Smilo who DO want to play matches but cannot do so regularly? Should we have a requirement for a minimum number of "I'm avail" selections in any 6 month period to remain a "valid" Charlie? Ooooh, I like adding questions

[Doorman]

1: No. But.........the waters have been muddied by all the versions. On a personal note, I'm all for have the latest of anything so maybe I'm blind to the pitfalls in Source. Time to say adieu to 1.6 though. As for other games, having more to choose from will only fragment things more.
2: Yes
3: No. There are people that thrive on matchplay and them what don't. They all know who they are. If they want a clique that absolutely fine. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Those that simply enjoy the cameraderie of dMw should be allowed to do so without feeling a lesser human bean. Oh, just so long as the matchers don't hijack servers. Let them use Baldric for their strategies etc.
I reckon that if anyone wants a match he will make it known.
My 2c

[Squonk]

1. Nope but i think its time to drop 1.6 and go with just CZ

2. Yes invitation only

3. There should be a match playing section within charlie. As its been said we have 40+ members and only 15 regulars that play so let those charlies that want to play matches play on the days best for them.  iam not sure if a diffrent tag is requied as we are all dMw    Just sort out..Those that are the match players to the ones that dont want to play regular .
The members that want to play now and again we could sort out friendly's etc (just a thought)

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by squonk@Dec 28 2004, 03:43 PM
3. There should be a match playing section within charlie. As its been said we have 40+ members and only 15 regulars that play so let those charlies that want to play matches play on the days best for them. iam not sure if a diffrent tag is requied as we are all dMw Just sort out..Those that are the match players to the ones that dont want to play regular .
The members that want to play now and again we could sort out friendly's etc (just a thought)

[post=73242]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

:withstupid:

Good point. If Charlie is invitation only then that person has been invited for a reason; either because he is an awesome match player AND a credit to dMw or he has a lot to offer dMw AND is a credit to dMw (a la Tugs) <- Note the common denomitor

If people are in Charlie then do we really need to separate those who play matches regularly from those who do not. As Ron mentioned earlier (or was it in another thread) when we were invited to join dMw (before Charlie existed) matchplay was not the raison d'etre but a byline. The raison d'etre was PCS as it was then called.

The whole Charlie/Delta thing has got out of hand. Until we define the aim of Charlie we can't define how it should be structured.  Charlie should be to push the good name of dMw, encourage TCS and (if they want to) play matches. We don't need Delta or Echo or anything else like that. If people need to feel that they are in a superior group then maybe they are diverging from the the needs of TCS (and that is not aimed at anybody before anybody takes the hump).

TCS should and must come first or else we are just another clan with some funny server rules. We aren't and shouldn't even aspire to be.

I'm going to stop now because this is starting to wander a bit (time for my tablets) but I guess people will see how I feel.

[smilodon]

1. Yes. There are too many versions and we all seem to prefer different ones. We need to settle down to play one specific version. Sadly we will have to be led in this by the CS gaming community and the leagues we play in. Adding non CS related games may well add levels of confusions and fragmentation which is what I believe we should be moving away from. I have a particular interest in maps and having three versions of the game is making getting this sorted a complete nightmare. I don't even know what our default version is, let alone what maps we should be playing.

2. Yes definately. Charlie is for a specific group of people within the dMw community. We know who we are and why we're members. Even if we can't define it properly. Recent additions to our numbers have undermined that group identity. I'm increasing thinking of myself less as a Charlie member and more as an Admin member when defining where I like to sit within the community. Charlie doesn't really mean anything anymore

3. Yes. But there should be some distinction between Charlie members and match players.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by smilodon@Dec 28 2004, 03:55 PM
2. Yes definately. Charlie is for a specific group of people within the dMw community. We know who we are and why we're members. Even if we can't define it properly. Recent additions to our numbers have undermined that group identity. I'm increasing thinking of myself less as a Charlie member and more as an Admin member when defining where I like to sit within the community. Charlie doesn't really mean anything anymore

[post=73244]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

That's a good point and describes quite accurately how I have been feeling - Charlie has become diluted because we allowed people to apply rather than saying "invites" and then we all got carried away and voted lots of people onboard.

We do need fresh blood but do we need it aas regularly.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

1. I think we should edge towards CZ but keep a 1.6 server up....as for going to another game this may spilt the comunity more.    

2. Invitation could be the way to go...It will help prevent disapointing people like ghost.

3. I dont see any reason to seperate non-match/match players. The current squad system works well for ghost's at the moment. Sunday is a popular match day tho

[Gh0st Face Killah]

Definately go more towards CZ but as JAS says having one 1.6 server would be a good thing.

Definately by invite only, but as BB said to people we feel are going to offer something to Charlie company not just because they are awesome shots.

I would like to play more matchs but unfortunately work means I am often away from home and so are unable to do so. I don't think that we should split Charlie up into another squad, if you make yourself available and are on the servers you should have as much chance to play as the next man, it might be an idea for the SLs to ask people on the server if they want to play rather than just picking the usual suspects.

[Doorman]

Having thought a little more, things are beginning to pull together.
1: Definately ditch 1.6 and go for CZ or Source. Eventually it will be Source when it shapes up to everyone's liking.  
2: Invitation to dMw. Full stop!
3: Stop all this Charlie/Bravo stuff. It's elitist. You are either dMw or you're not.

OK, there are admins, gotta have 'em, if only to keep a bit of order sometimes. That's as far as deliniation should go.

If you want to play matches, make it known. (I think I've repeated myself there) If you make the team you'll be like a college 'jock', we'll know who you are.
 :dmw:
Over.

[Dr Sadako]

1. CS is dead and it is rather obvious. The only time I play CS is when we have matches other than that is CZ. Focus on CZ and Source. Source is still in its cradle but could evolve to something good. Keep one CS server.

2. Yes. Invite only.

3. Yes. If not then the range of bravo to delta is completely pointless.  People apply for Charlie to be in matches and it seems like some have forgot that. Read the community structure. Bravo is the social part of the structure and charlie is for matches. That destinction was made 1.5 years ago and I haven't seen or heard any protests regarding it.

FInal comment:
I know there are match playing charlies that felt robbed when there was no real match commitment and thus stopped playing. I know charlies that consider leaving dMw for other clans because of the current state. I think that is worth mentioning.

[TeaLeaf]

/thunks  :unsure:

The thoughts and comments are appreciated peeps.  :winkiss:

But I need to cogitate a wee bit more  :whistle:

And then I'll reply.........  :blush:

TL.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Dr Sadako@Dec 28 2004, 06:39 PM
FInal comment:
I know there are match playing charlies that felt robbed when there was no real match commitment and thus stopped playing. I know charlies that consider leaving dMw for other clans because of the current state. I think that is worth mentioning.

[post=73257]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

That works both ways

gotta go out - i'll post more later

[smilodon]

So the sticking points seems to be number three. How do we structure the core clan membership?

I can see the problem squad leaders have, in that they have no real idea who is actually a functioning match player and who isn't. The only way they can find out is to observe players not making themselves available over a period of time, which isn't that efficient a method. It seems quite understandable to make a distinction between match playing members and occassional or non playing members.

The additional issue is that non match players don't fall into a single definable group. There are non match players who are otherwise full and active members of the core community and non match players who have that title through being historical early members of the clan but who play no part now, or finally who have received membership as recognition and reward for sterling efforts in supporting the clan i.e during our hacking crisis.

Just having a catch all Charlie squad for all of us isn't really fair on Squad Leaders. It's no suprise that Sadako is a clear supporter of change as he is a major organiser of matches for the clan and suffers the consequences of the problem.

On the other hand multiple squads can lead to confusion and elitism if not managed properly.

So I'd argue that there does need to be means of identifying active Charlie members, community activists (for want of a better term) and Charlie members who are inactive both in the community and in match play. Basically three groups.

So always willing to stick my neck out here goes.

Inactive Charlie members who neither play matches or participate in the community on a regular basis should revert to Bravo's. A tough call but I can't see the point of just having names on a list if there isn't a person behind that name anymore.

Match playing Charlies stay as they are. Ghosts, Phantoms, Zombies and Deltas remain unchanged.

Active community members who offer something to the community beyond or apart from playing matches recieve a junior admin role (TCS Admin or something similar). We currently have 28 Charlie members and looking through the list I'd argue there were two or three inactives and another two or three who are serious community members but not regular match players. So we're not talking about a big shake up.

So we'd have

1. Community Admins who have full admin rights as they do now, such as TL, Oldie, GLJ and Sadako etc. So there'd be no change to that.

2. An additional few TCS Admins (with or without Rcon as deemed appropriate by the Admins) for Charlie members who fit the bill. i.e Tugs, Benny and Sheepy.

3. Removal of most Shadows to Bravo (contentious I know).

In addition admins who don't play many matches (Smilodon, Doorman, Stryker etc.) as well as having their Admin and TCS admin status could also be added to Shadow. This would allow us to maybe play the odd match (or at least offer ourselves for selection) from time to time.

This doesn't add any additional groups into the pot, leaves the Ghost, Zombie, Phantom, Delta and Shadow structure is it is, recognises serious community members who don't play matches and offers them a title and status within the community and clears out people back to Bravo (who I would now argue are just names on a list)  that clearly no longer play any part in the dMw community.

Chew on that folks