Squad System - Review

OldBloke · January 10, 2003, 11:07:33 AM

Well Gents, it's been two months since we began trialling the concept of squads in the clan and, as promised, it's time to review that decision.

I would like this to be a full and frank discussion so do not be afraid to speak your mind.

When everyone has had a chance to have their say we will vote on any resulting proposals.

So let's hear it people. How was it for you?

Recap of Squad system:

We have 25 members not all of which are 'match-active'.
We selected the top 8 players in the clan to form the Zombie squad.
All other clan members formed the Ghost squad.
Zombies play their matches in Clanbase on Thursdays.
Ghosts play their matches in Enemy Down on Wednesdays and Sundays.
Zombies cannot play for Ghosts to the exclusion of an available Ghost and vice versa.

Stryker · January 10, 2003, 12:22:39 PM

I'm still in the catch-22 situation.... I've not played as much cos I miss not playing with the winners of the popularity compo.... erm skill set :-)

I'm still of the mind I'd rather a mix and match..... then again it all depends on how far of a slip we've made into the "play to win" mind set.

The place a zombie crew would be best suited would be if we ever entered into a "knock-out" torny... but thats just common sense.

DogMeat · January 10, 2003, 12:40:02 PM

As we're being frank, I thought the concept sucked. I've all but lost interest in CS and haven't played at all for the last month. When I was playing, the server would always seem to empty after 10 mins of play because everyone went off to play ED or CB.

Make of it what you will, but it wasn't like this before the squads were introduced...

OldBloke · January 10, 2003, 01:35:47 PM

QuoteAs we're being frank, I thought the concept sucked.

Fair enough. No suggestions on how it could be improved though I see.

QuoteI've all but lost interest in CS and haven't played at all for the last month.

Are you saying this is a direct result of the squad concept?

QuoteWhen I was playing, the server would always seem to empty after 10 mins of play because everyone went off to play ED or CB.

Not quite correct. The server would empty because everyone went off to IRC to see if they were picked for the match. This problem was identified and rectified by TeaLeaf one month ago.

See: http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=863

QuoteMake of it what you will, but it wasn't like this before the squads were introduced...

Yes it was. See my answer above.

DogMeat · January 10, 2003, 02:30:01 PM

Fair enough. You asked for comments, remember. I'd already had enough of playing clans who outclassed us either due to being several orders of magnitude better, or by using questionable methods. At that point I wasn't particularly looking forward to being shunted off into the "also-rans" squad and sent off for more butt-raping.

I played (I think) one squad match through being unlucky enough to be around when the team were a man short and guess what? Another butt-rape - what a surprise. That was enough for me at that point.

So in answer to your question, yes it was due to the squad system that I stopped playing. Whether or not you think my reasons are valid is immaterial, this is feedback. And no, I don't have any better suggestions at the moment, but hey, feel free to have another pop at me for not liking the system...

Stryker · January 10, 2003, 02:35:55 PM

I think b4 we can make any decisions we need to decide what we want.

Deadmen has always concentrated on being good to play, we have more than 99.9% of other clans in our hardware and excellent forum.

Now if we are moving our goals to being tops in the leagues then the squads is the way to go.... having squads is a sacrifice of that goal.

If thats not the case then why bother with squads?

Am I making sense?

TeaLeaf · January 10, 2003, 04:45:17 PM

The thing that I have found really useful is that it has made looking at the availability page much easier. Before the squad system, we had got to a stage where we had twenty people up for a 5 v 5 match and they were all in IRC not on MH - and worse still you had no idea whihc of the 20 people would be picked for the match.

We solved the 20 people in IRC with a simple change, but you can still look at availability and find a whole bunch of people there. Take the matchh due on Sunday - we currently have 10 people listed as available (one of our less popular matches then!), but I can see at a glance that I will probably not be needed because there are already 6 Ghosts listed as available for a 5 v 5 match. In this respect the system works really well, because it makes knowing whether or not you're likely to play a hell of a lot easier.

So my personal preference would be to continue with a system that allows me to know that, for example, on a Thursday I will probably have a match to play in (cos I'm a Zombie - no jokes please :wink: ). I also know that I am unlikely to be needed on other nights, the pressure is off. That bit, I like a lot.

As for playing with the same people, the positives are that you DO learn to play a match better as a team because you know the people you are playing with. I can't speak for Ghosts, but I know that every Zombie would agree with that point. But if we continued the system then I think that ti would be nice to refresh/review/rotate the players a bit to avoid it becoming stale and to give others a chance in other squads/different match days.

Just my 3 cents (it's inflation you know)

TL.

OldBloke · January 10, 2003, 05:39:06 PM

Quote... why bother with squads?

The squad experiment was set up in an attempt (possibly futile) to please all of the people all of the time.

dMw have never recruited on ability. I sincerely hope this continues. The vast majority of the clans we play do recruit on ability. Bastards. So we get raped. And we will continue to get raped because of this one fact alone.

Our selection policy was based upon rotation and skill. But when some members started to say "How the hell are we expected to win a match when xxxxxx is picked and xxxxxx isn't." was when I looked for a way to for the clan to be competitive where it needed to be. By this I mean the Tournaments and Cup competitions. I don't think anyone would have disagreed if the selection policy for these type of matches was based on skill alone. But who were these dMw frag monkees and how would they play as a team? Hence the squad experiment. It was never an attempt to become a 'win-at-all-costs' clan. With our recruitment policy how could it be? We are a PCS clan that plays non-PCS matches for fun and as such PCS should always come first.

I'll put my cards on the table and say straight off that I'm not entirely convinced that it's been a successful experiment. My main concern is that there has been a divisive element to it. This was my biggest fear when the experiment was first announced. Already in this topic the Ghosts have been referred to as 'also rans'. I must confess that's not how I see them. Instead I see some very skilled players many of whom were extremely unlucky not to be elected to the Zombie squad.

QuoteDeadmen has always concentrated on being good to play, we have more than 99.9% of other clans in our hardware and excellent forum.

Indisputable. We have a reputation for being lame-free and have the facilities that are the envy of most clans and I thank everyone's efforts in achieving that position.

OldBloke · January 10, 2003, 05:55:28 PM

QuoteSo in answer to your question, yes it was due to the squad system that I stopped playing. Whether or not you think my reasons are valid is immaterial, this is feedback.

I think you had a valid reason for not wanting to play in matches. What I don't understand is why the squad system stopped you playing PCS.

I truly believe that eventually all of us get disillusioned with CS. I like to think of it as peaks and troughs. If I feel pissed off I simply tell myself that I'm in a trough and a peak will be along real soon. I for one am hoping that 1.6 will rekindle some of the excitement that's missing from my own game at the moment.

TeaLeaf · January 10, 2003, 06:09:41 PM

Quotefeel free to have another pop at me for not liking the system...

Why thank you!

[size=24]POP

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

TL.

FrEnZy · January 10, 2003, 11:17:51 PM

Personaly The squad system is working for me. I don't know about our wins, but i've enjoyed it more.

Doggers:
tbh after admitting to having only played one match, you never really gave the squad system a fair go and so can't particularly comment. I didn't like it to start with, but its grown on me.

TeaLeaf: :lol:

Anonymous · January 11, 2003, 12:16:10 AM

<2p worth>

I didn't like it for the reasons that I listed in a (much) earlier topic. My concerns were, and still are, that it might cause a division between the members of dMw. Please note that I am not accusing anyone of being divisive nor that anyone is purposely acting like this. It is just an inevitable outcome of a two tier situation.

Oldie, I do not believie that the experiment was a waste of time. If we were to have decided not to do this without trying it then it would hve been equally unacceptable (if we were never to try anything new then I would never have tried PCS). We had an experiment, we have seen the result, we are drawing conclusions. Seems like we have given things a fair try.

Anyway, irrespective of the outome of the discussion I will back it as it will be a majority decoision. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this will all boil down to one thing:

Do we want to be extremely competitive or do we want to be the "nice guys of PCS".

I would prefer to concentrate on PCS but still have the odd game (shutup Squonk I know that most of my games are odd) but, as I say, whatever dMw vote I will go along with and support. I just think that we are stronger as a team whne we are all pulling together and not in two directions.

PS all spelling mistakes are my own and are solely due to Millers

TeaLeaf · January 11, 2003, 09:20:45 AM

QuoteI think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this will all boil down to one thing:

Do we want to be extremely competitive or do we want to be the "nice guys of PCS".

IMHO here's a correction:

The squad system, as I tried to intimate in my earlier post in this thread, does not have to boil down to a 'competitive squad' and another squad. For example, I have found it much more helpful in figuring out whether or not I'm likely to get a match 'tonight'.

It does not have to be an elite squad, in that respect it is only as elite as the reverence you give to it. Give it none and it will not be elite. As an alternative I suggested that we could rotate players between the squads to keep this advantage.

Another benefit that has nothing to do with a two tier system is that the squads (both Ghosts and Zombies) have started to play better together as a team. Over the period of the squad experiment I have seen both squads improve because you get to play with the same group of people in a match situation on a regular basis.

Also, remember the SL advantages. It has enabled Oldie to share out some of the repsonsibility for war arranging, server admin responsibiltiies, team picking, chasing people up, checking they get to the match server OK, getting replacements when someone fails to show, etc, and all up to 4 nights every week. It is a HUGE task to do that for a 25 person clan and takes up more hours than most people would care to play CS during the week.

So there are advantages and disadvantages to the two squad system. But it is NOT a black and white decision.

Look at the benefits of the system and decide which elements you want to keep - I think there are at least three benefits listed above that I think are worth keeping.

There is one disadvantage that I think might be worth eliminating.

If you pick and choose the bits you like, you end up with a customised system that works and is designed to meet our needs - if something in the current system does not work then point it out (as peeps above have been doing) but also, suggest a better way of doing it - otherwise we never move forward.

You may not want to keep the system the way it currently is, but do you want to return to the recent days in October/November when you could have up to 20 people available on the webbie and no clue as to whether or not you are likely to be playing? That in itself puts huge pressure on people like Oldie. Is there a better way of doing it?

TL.

Squonk · January 11, 2003, 10:07:10 AM

Quote

The squad system, as I tried to intimate in my earlier post in this thread, does not have to boil down to a 'competitive squad' and another squad. For example, I have found it much more helpful in figuring out whether or not I'm likely to get a match 'tonight'.
TL.

This i also like.... makes it so easy just to take a look on the avil page and if its a ghost match and theres only 5 down i know iam gonna play and if its a zombie match and theres 5 of them down i know iam not

QuoteIt does not have to be an elite squad

could we not just split the members down the midlle...have 12 memebers in each?
eg...4 zombies go to ghosts 4 ghosts to zombies (this spliting what we regard as the better players. then split the rest between the two? this giving two squads of 12and 12? useing pulling names out of the hat trick

but keeping oldie and sheep as the war daddies for ech squad

smite · January 11, 2003, 10:20:23 AM

Quote
QuoteIt does not have to be an elite squad
could we not just split the members down the midlle...have 12 memebers in each?
eg...4 zombies go to ghosts 4 ghosts to zombies (this spliting what we regard as the better players. then split the rest between the two? this giving two squads of 12and 12? useing pulling names out of the hat trick
but keeping oldie and sheep as the war daddies for ech squad[/b]

I personally did not like the split of the better players all on one team..(extreme suggestion) but can we not have 3 maybe 4 teams all with equal levels of skill in each not one elite but 3 or 4 good teams then these people can get used to each others style and have it in the same context ie:- Zombies on thurs ..Ghosts on mondays ..Ghouls on sundays ..Smites Bitches on wednesdays and if a side does not have enough players then other people can make themselves available.
I realise that this idea is another huge step but it is only an idea so please dont shoot me down in flames coz im a sensitive soul (Squirrel SSSSssssh)

I think the problem came when people got it into there heads that they were not in the Zombies therefore were not "Elite" which is bollox coz there isnt any bad players in dMw.